BG Neo 10 Testing

jtwrace · « **on:** 15 Feb 2020, 02:01 am »

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/bg_neo10/?fbclid=IwAR3rMOREP1_gpeBm82BC83_wOJU0FjvVQxEZI-Vtu5M2gVKMc3hJ1qVUAL8

Klif's notes: Very non-linear frequency response. Odd things in the unit-to-unit consistency with regards to the distortion. I know people have used them and liked them... maybe they were inebriated? Or maybe there's a legit use for them that I'm just not aware of like line arrays (as the marketing indicates). Either way, I can't recommend them for 'standard' speaker applications based on what I'm seeing here.

Saturn94 · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 02:57 am »

I see that’s from 2013. I wonder if any of the issues were addressed since then?

HAL · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 03:10 am »

The other question would be if the NEO10's were used before with energy below 200Hz. That might have damaged them before testing. His testing is also going below 200Hz.

It would be interesting to compare these measurements with new production NEO10's to see any differences.

erinh · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 03:51 pm »

1) Can't answer if the item has changed since I tested it in 2013. But the current spec does show a very high non-linearity in FR like I measured.

2) I have measured tweeters without a HPF hundreds of times. Never a problem. But aside from that, the spec also states this driver's recommended passband is from 150hz to 6khz. 150hz. Which is lower than the 200hz mentioned of concern.

Whether or not the driver has changed... well, the data can still be useful for any number of reason. I agree that if the item is changed it would be interesting to see what the difference is. Just don't shoot the messenger.

Jon L · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 05:08 pm »

Well, seeing how GR Research is currently not shipping any speakers based on BG Neo 10 due to driver "issues," I would ONLY buy them from trusted sources that test them. Hope GR Research can work with BG to come up with some reliable and well-measuring units soon

genjamon · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 06:14 pm »

Is there a reason he only secured the driver into the baffle with two screws? Would that have any impact on performance?

erinh · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 06:17 pm »

Quote from: genjamon on 15 Feb 2020, 06:14 pm

Is there a reason he only secured the driver into the baffle with two screws? Would that have any impact on performance?

Only if the driver is not otherwise secure and if there's enough moving mass to matter. So, certainly not with a driver like this with no moving mass.

If anything that would make the measurements better because there would be less diffraction from the little screw heads.

S Clark · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Feb 2020, 06:23 pm »

Quote from: Jon L on 15 Feb 2020, 05:08 pm

Well, seeing how GR Research is currently not shipping any speakers based on BG Neo 10 due to driver "issues," I would ONLY buy them from trusted sources that test them. Hope GR Research can work with BG to come up with some reliable and well-measuring units soon

Danny is working with a different manufacturer to build a 10" planar magnetic driver to meet his specs. They are still working out the bugs. As I understand it, BG is not in the picture.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 03:20 am »

The frequency response of these drivers is completely dependant on how they are loaded, mounted, baffle width, etc. You can get a huge variation in response based on this stuff. So one can't take a measurement and conclude that the measurement represents the response of that driver. It is the response in that application.

Loaded properly they will give a very linear response within the range that they are used.

Taking a distortion measurement outside of an anechoic chamber is problematic and will result in inconsistencies like those shown. I've tried a few distortion measurements and got huge variations ike that from one measurement to the next using the same driver. Anything in the room in regards to room noise to throw them way out of whack. And for the frequency responses to be that close then have distortion measurements that far off doesn't make any sense. Anything causing real distortion levels off in that magnitude would also show up everywhere else. So clearly something was wrong in the way they were taken.

Where these drivers excell is in having the fastest and cleanest spectral decay of any driver that I've seen.

And BG has been out of business for about three years or more now.

And I have literally bought and used hundreds of those drivers and have never seen any inconsistency issues.

erinh · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 03:53 am »

I tested these in the same manner I tested your subwoofer, Danny. You didn’t have any complaints about my results or methods then. Distortion measurements were done in the nearfield. No room or baffle influence there.

erinh · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 04:03 am »

Link to above-mentioned Rythmik subwoofer test:
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/rythmik-f12g-direct-servo-subwoofer/

Zaph also tested the Neo10 and showed the same FR trend. And noted a peak around 5khz.

Others have commented to me that they had some oddities in HD measurements show up with their Neo10's as well.

You can try to blame the measurement. But that's not the problem. Wasn't a problem when I tested the FG12 It was the drive units. I can't make it simpler than that. I do find it amusing, though, that when a speaker doesn't measure excellently that the tester is blamed. Even though others' results show similar trends. The data speaks for itself. Yes, this driver is an odd-bird. But that doesn't make the data less valid. It's just another way of determining how best to use it.

Thanks.

JohnR · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 07:53 am »

Hey Erin, I'm really glad to see you putting your measurements back online. Keep up the good work

Could you tell us what "PHD" on the Klippel distortion graphs is?

AJinFLA · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 12:19 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 16 Feb 2020, 07:53 am

Could you tell us what "PHD" on the Klippel distortion graphs is?

Peak value. Scroll to around pg 42
https://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/ALMA_Irrgang_QC_Seminar_2_per_page.pdf

AJinFLA · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 12:23 pm »

Quote from: Danny Richie on 16 Feb 2020, 03:20 am

And BG has been out of business for about three years or more now.

Ahh, that explains a few things. Guessing PE sources direct from former China factory now?

cheers,

AJ
Soundfield

Danny Richie · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 01:50 pm »

erinh,

I'm not shooting the messenger or questioning your ability to use the equipment. But measuring for distortion outside of an anechoic chamber will give you those inconsistent results. Even the manual that comes with our Clio system covers that issue.

And it makes no sense for one or two drivers to show no distortion and be perfectly flat and few others are all over the place. If problems like that are real then they would be showing up in other ways and in other measurements, but they do not.

Quote from: AJinFLA on 16 Feb 2020, 12:23 pm

Ahh, that explains a few things. Guessing PE sources direct from former China factory now?

cheers,

AJ
Soundfield

BG Sold out to Chisty Digital and they now own the rights to those drivers. They were and still are being made by the same company in the Philippines.

Availability has been spotty since they took over.

Nick77 · « **Reply #15 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 02:36 pm »

Wrong thread

JohnR · « **Reply #16 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 02:37 pm »

Please ask unrelated questions of Danny in his own circle. Thanks.

erinh · « **Reply #17 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 03:01 pm »

Quote from: Danny Richie on 16 Feb 2020, 01:50 pm

erinh,

I'm not shooting the messenger or questioning your ability to use the equipment. But measuring for distortion outside of an anechoic chamber will give you those inconsistent results. Even the manual that comes with our Clio system covers that issue.

And it makes no sense for one or two drivers to show no distortion and be perfectly flat and few others are all over the place. If problems like that are real then they would be showing up in other ways and in other measurements, but they do not.

BG Sold out to Chisty Digital and they now own the rights to those drivers. They were and still are being made by the same company in the Philippines.

Availability has been spotty since they took over.

I understand. And sorry if I come off as defensive. But I've had nothing but grief after posting these results a couple days ago in all sorts of places. People questioning my test methods and blaming me for my suggestion based on what the data shows.

I keep referencing back to the mfg spec that shows a similar FR swing.

As for the unit-to-unit consistency the way I see it is: either the units were 1) somehow mistreated before they were sent to me or 2) they really did vary this much.

I'm tempted to remove this review entirely from my site due to concerns that it is #1 above.
On the other hand, I would feel obliged to leave them up if it's #2 above.

So, I've decided to compromise. I've made an update to my review and noted the concern over consistency. But I'm still leaving the data up.

erinh · « **Reply #18 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 03:02 pm »

Quote from: JohnR on 16 Feb 2020, 07:53 am

Hey Erin, I'm really glad to see you putting your measurements back online. Keep up the good work

Could you tell us what "PHD" on the Klippel distortion graphs is?

I appreciate it.

Looks like AJ answered your question.

JohnR · « **Reply #19 on:** 16 Feb 2020, 03:41 pm »

I only have one pair but they show similar sort of variations between the two. I don't really see what the fuss is about as most of it is outside its passband / within the passband it's not that much considering these are planars. Wrt distortion I don't see that but I measured at a low level, I did see the other set of measurements (can't find them easily, it was on a forum) that suggested that the spikes tend to show up at higher levels.