[Zitoun]

Hello,

I am new in the OB/bipole world, and I'm looking for advice on how to compare dipole in order to facilitate my next listening sessions and pick the best option for me.

I put a table together to try organise the infirmation I gathered here and there. This is just a draft, but I'd like to see if I forgot other potential good options, if I missed an important criteria to assess, and if that makes sense overall.

[Shakeydeal]

You can put that table in the circular file. You'll never know for sure w/o listening to them.

Shakey

[Zitoun]

You can put that table in the circular file.

What is the circular file ?

You'll never know for sure w/o listening to them.
Shakey

The first 2 options will be done in the next few days, I can enter technical, pricing and risk information based on my readings, and once I get there I will ask experienced people to complete it if they agree on the information for the first 2 speakers. Does that make sense?

[Shakeydeal]

You must be wound up tighter than Dick's hat band.

Seems like a lot of "who shot John" to come up with a suitable candidate for a speaker. The qualitative analysis (which is the most important criteria) is all subjective and could go a dozen different ways depending on who is listening to the speaker, or who you ask.

I say leave that s&*t (tables and graphs!) at the workplace. This is supposed to be fun. Get out and listen to some speakers. If you can't hear all your candidates, just bring em in from Audiogon and sell the ones that don't make the cut. That's truly the only way to make a decision.

Shakey

[Zitoun]

You must be wound up tighter than Dick's hat band.

Seems like a lot of "who shot John" to come up with a suitable candidate for a speaker. The qualitative analysis (which is the most important criteria) is all subjective and could go a dozen different ways depending on who is listening to the speaker, or who you ask.

I say leave that s&*t (tables and graphs!) at the workplace. This is supposed to be fun. Get out and listen to some speakers. If you can't hear all your candidates, just bring em in from Audiogon and sell the ones that don't make the cut. That's truly the only way to make a decision.

Shakey

Thank for your opinion, I do have a different one, when you invest money on something you should not ignore resale value and main characteristics of speakers such as polar response. And these qualitative factors are not entirely subjective, that's why reviewer are popular and companies conduct blind tests.

I am just trying to organize information around few products like you do for any products on website when you click on compare, nothing complicated, nothing new, so I assumed that this community was informed enough to answer.

Thanks for your feedback tough.

[richidoo]

You and Shakeydeal are on opposite ends of the audiophile continuum, but still, on the same continuum you are. There is a lot of wisdom in Shakeys advice if you can see it.

OTOH, I can see that your analysis is very thorough and you are considering the subjective aspects like appearance and resale value, not just performance metrics. And you have a sense of humor (cheesegrater  )

What matters most to your choice is how listening to the gear makes you feel. The specs mean nothing if you don't listen to it because it doesn't give you the feeling you thought it would. It's not an appliance, it's a musical instrument, and it should make you love it. Some speakers are intended to be appliance and some as works of art. Most of us want something in between. Speakers are especially personal and irrational choices because as very inefficient transducers they are the highest distortion component (besides the room) in your system, therefore they contribute the most coloration and that color (distortion) gives them the leverage to make you feel good or bad when listening. The feeling may vary with the genre and volume of the music, or the shape and size of the room. I would suggest that your list of attributes would be re-prioritized after you had the chance to audition them. Audiophiles love to share, it should be possible to audition your choices.

The old audiophile advice is "always audition speakers before you buy them." Other components you can take the risk, but speakers definitely find an hour in front of them listening to your own music choices, preferably with only you in the room, if possible.
Good luck in your search!

[JohnR]

I don't see why it's a problem to do some upfront research.

[Shakeydeal]

I don't see why it's a problem to do some upfront research.

I'm not saying it's a problem. But don't hang your hat on specs when it comes to a luxury item that is designed to do nothing but entertain you. And don't get me started on resale value. Not to say it shouldn't be considered, but it should be down there at the bottom of the totem pole with specs and measurements.

The way I look at it, if I can buy a used speaker and enjoy it for - let's say a year - and get 70% of my $$ back, I'm ok with that. Maybe that's why I'll never be wealthy.........

Shakey

[Zitoun]

You and Shakeydeal are on opposite ends of the audiophile continuum, but still, on the same continuum you are. There is a lot of wisdom in Shakeys advice if you can see it.

OTOH, I can see that your analysis is very thorough and you are considering the subjective aspects like appearance and resale value, not just performance metrics. And you have a sense of humor (cheesegrater  )

What matters most to your choice is how listening to the gear makes you feel. The specs mean nothing if you don't listen to it because it doesn't give you the feeling you thought it would. It's not an appliance, it's a musical instrument, and it should make you love it. Some speakers are intended to be appliance and some as works of art. Most of us want something in between. Speakers are especially personal and irrational choices because as very inefficient transducers they are the highest distortion component (besides the room) in your system, therefore they contribute the most coloration and that color (distortion) gives them the leverage to make you feel good or bad when listening. The feeling may vary with the genre and volume of the music, or the shape and size of the room. I would suggest that your list of attributes would be re-prioritized after you had the chance to audition them. Audiophiles love to share, it should be possible to audition your choices.

The old audiophile advice is "always audition speakers before you buy them." Other components you can take the risk, but speakers definitely find an hour in front of them listening to your own music choices, preferably with only you in the room, if possible.
Good luck in your search!

Thanks for you answer, this is well articulated.

As you mention this is an irrational choice at the end but tied with realities like budget and dependencies like need for a powerhouse amp or WAC on design, need a sub etc... .

I didn't prioritize the criterion yet, I am just trying to be sure it's consistent and complete before I do my second audition and prepare my playlist accordingly.

I am not stuck on specs but that will help to guide the auditions, as you said specs are NOT reflecting the musicality of the speakers.

Anything that I missed?

[FullRangeMan]

+1 on listening before purchase.
Magnepan 1.7 are hard to drive, low 4 ohms impedance, efficiency only 86dB, need lots of power and use a 3-way xover.

[Zitoun]

I'm not saying it's a problem. But don't hang your hat on specs when it comes to a luxury item that is designed to do nothing but entertain you. And don't get me started on resale value. Not to say it shouldn't be considered, but it should be down there at the bottom of the totem pole with specs and measurements.
Shakey

Hey Shakey, I am not obsessed by specs, but as I am new in this domain I need to learn a lot, and for me the learning is actually the fun part (I guess we all find hapinness in different places), especially when you start talking in an audio shop and the sales guy has to ask an audiophile expert to come continue the conversation. It means that you are getting a better understanding of what you are looking for and won't be fooled or biased by the look of the speakers, the room, or what the sales guy will say.  I even found other qualities of my current limited setup I didn't pay attention for the last 8 years mainly because of my poor understanding of accoustics, and audio charachteristics of speakers.

I am surprised that such a simple comprehensive evaluation table does not exist anywhere I looked at, So I created it to learn how to conduct a critical listening. I also realised that the audiophile market is full of people that are compulsive buyers obsessed by the next best thing (if that ever exists), and the fuzziness and subjectivity around the products is a great catalyst to reinforce this behavior. (which is great to generate more revenue)

The way I look at it, if I can buy a used speaker and enjoy it for - let's say a year - and get 70% of my $$ back, I'm ok with that. Maybe that's why I'll never be wealthy.........
Shakey

So If understand your strategy you will then completlly eliminate the DIY GR Ressearch Kit, as this won't ressell that high. From what I have seen it's more about 30-50% depending on finish(basically the value of the drivers at that time of the sale).

Is that correct ? or you really don't want to be wealthy ?

[Tyson]

I can give you some subjective input - I've heard all of those speakers except the X5.  But I have heard the X2, the Lumina and a few other Spatial Audio speakers. 

IMO if you want to buy a finished speaker, Spatial is the best out there, definitely a step up over the Maggies (and Martin Logan and Pure Audio Project). 

But if you can put a kit together, or have someone do it for you, the NX-Ottica is one of the very best OB speaker I've heard.  It needs subs, so I'd recommend building just the MTM portion of the NX-Ottica and using the subs as stands.  How good is the bass from the subs?  Let's put it this way - the Lumina from Spatial, top of the line $27,000 speaker, uses the same subs for it's bass.  Yes, it's that good. 

[Zitoun]

+1 on listening before purchase.
Magnepan 1.7 are hard to drive, low 4 ohms impedance, efficiency only 86dB, need lots of power and use a 3-way xover.

Thanks, I did consider buying a new amp to drive them in the budget, but didn't know about the crossover.
Does this one can make the job, or should I consider a fancy box with tubes and fancy cables ?
https://www.amazon.com/Rockville-RX230-Stereo-Crossover-Output/dp/B01LZUQ4OU?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_3

Thanks for contributing,

[Zitoun]

I can give you some subjective input - I've heard all of those speakers except the X5.  But I have heard the X2, the Lumina and a few other Spatial Audio speakers. 

IMO if you want to buy a finished speaker, Spatial is the best out there, definitely a step up over the Maggies (and Martin Logan and Pure Audio Project). 

But if you can put a kit together, or have someone do it for you, the NX-Ottica is one of the very best OB speaker I've heard.  It needs subs, so I'd recommend building just the MTM portion of the NX-Ottica and using the subs as stands.  How good is the bass from the subs?  Let's put it this way - the Lumina from Spatial, top of the line $27,000 speaker, uses the same subs for it's bass.  Yes, it's that good.

Got it,

The big caveeat is that I can't even listen to them before deciding... and it's already hard to formulate an objective opinion on 2 speakers in the same room with different amps, for something you can't hear that's quiet impossible.

But I do trust your judgment, just not sure about mine.

[Tyson]

Part of the reason I like the Spatial and the GR Research speakers so much is the bass is self-powered.  Which means you don't need a monster amp to drive them.  Since the bass is off loaded, you can get an amp that is lower powered, more delicate, more detailed, more musical and it will shine with these speakers because it can focus on an awesome midrange and highs only.   That's a pretty genius design move, IMO. 

[Zitoun]

Part of the reason I like the Spatial and the GR Research speakers so much is the bass is self-powered.  Which means you don't need a monster amp to drive them.  Since the bass is off loaded, you can get an amp that is lower powered, more delicate, more detailed, more musical and it will shine with these speakers because it can focus on an awesome midrange and highs only.   That's a pretty genius design move, IMO.

I do like simple and elegant desing, and I agree with you, that removes one factor out of the equation, and also make it simplier to setup, upgrade and maintain. I didn't really pay attention to this, but I think that matters.
I won't go too deep in analysis paralysis, but I will pay attention to that in the listenings.

[Tyson]

Sensitivity of the X5 is 97db and the NX-Ottica is 93db.  That's important to keep in mind because the amp that sounds best with a mid-to-high 90's sensitivity speaker is going to be quite different than an amp that's going to sound good with a mid-to-high 80's sensitivity speaker. 

Here's a real world example - if you are using the Magnepan speakers, you have to have a single amp that drives bass, midrange and the tweeter because it's doesn't have a powered bass section.  So the amp that would sound best with it would be something like a Pass X250.  That amp has the power and control to drive them properly and still sound good.  But something like the X30 from Pass would not sound as good with the Maggies, it's just too underpowered. 

On the flip side, the X30 will sound great (amazing, actually) with something like the X5 or NX-Ottica.  Because it's lower powered, the focus is more on quality and beauty and less on brute strength.  So with an easy load, that amp excels.  On the other hand, put the X250 with the X5 or NX-Ottica and it won't sound as good as the X30.  Because it was designed to drive difficult loads.

So remember it's not just the speakers you are listening to, it's the speaker/amp interface. 

And if you are interested in tube amps at all, then it really does narrow it down to just GR Research and Spatial.  Both are very good candidates to match well with a tube amp.  Not saying you have to go in that direction, but it's nice to have it as an option if the itch ever arises.

[Shakeydeal]

Part of the reason I like the Spatial and the GR Research speakers so much is the bass is self-powered.  Which means you don't need a monster amp to drive them.  Since the bass is off loaded, you can get an amp that is lower powered, more delicate, more detailed, more musical and it will shine with these speakers because it can focus on an awesome midrange and highs only.   That's a pretty genius design move, IMO.

The Spatial speaker he is looking at has passive bass drivers.

Shakey

[Tyson]

The Spatial speaker he is looking at has passive bass drivers.

Shakey

Doh, you are right - sorry about that.  Well then, that definitely tilts things more toward the NX-Otticas.

[mcmusicman]

For me the most important consideration does not fit on a chart: The emotional involvement response when you play a track you know well and the music "moves" you. It happened the first time I heard well driven Magnepans and I was lost. The coherence stunned me and I was unable to identify any crossover point at all.  It is hard to put a price on realizing your eyes are leaking half way through a piece and you forgot to breathe. No one else can tell you what will work for you in this way, but when you hear it you will know.