[CIAudio]

All of our products carry the CE mark (it's on the box, not on the chassis). Our standard products use UL approved AC adapters, the VAC-1 and amplifiers are designed in accordance with UL safety guidelines, but are not submitted for test. We actually tried to do this and were told up to twelve months. We are still working on this but it isn't a requirement in most areas.

Our modules are different, and mostly in the surface mount circuitry (not just the buffer IC). Some of this work is done for us by Hypex, and some of it done here in our shop.

There are reasons to buy professionally built products as you suggested, and there are reasons to DIY. I'm not trying to knock what you're doing in any way...DIY audio is a great hobby! If I didn't do it for a living, I'd do it as a hobbyist  

[DeanSheen]

$2,500 may be a fair price to pay for an H2O amp, but I'm speculating you can do as well with the UcD's for about 600 bones assuming you can put one together yourself. Hopefully, I'll have a chance to compare the two at some point. I know other folks who already have and that's why I'm making the assertion.

Mac, thanks for your links.  I looked at them, but no way could I make these.  I need parts/instruction lists to assemble an exact unit.  I do have an unused housing in the basement intended for an AKSA, but I bailed on that project too.

A/B decriptions of DIY UcD vs. ICE would be interesting too.  I do wish the price of these things would come down, but apparently this isnt going to happen for some time.

Thanks for all your responses.

DS

[Rocket]

Hi,

I wish i could solder, read a schematic (and understand it) and also be an accomplished woodworker   .

Btw, Dusty does cut out the middle man as he sells direct to customers which is my preferred means of purchasing new products these days.

Deansheen, the aksa is a good diy amplifier if you have the necessary skills.  If however, you are like myself and don't the knowledge to build one i would not recommend doing so.  I have an aksa amplifier but it was built by hugh and assembled by a friend of mine.  With upgrades i have sunk a lot of money into the amplifier.

Regards

Rod

[DeanSheen]

Heh, uhh Rocket, looks like we are alike.  My friend made an AKSA and I spent some time and many emails with him through the project.  He did have a few setbacks with materials, botched construction, comprehension,etc.

It did cost him a few bucks too & woulda cost me even more with my level of comprehension/execution.

Ahh well.  Maybe one of these days we will have a cheaper class D amp.  2.5k would instantly make the amp the most expensive piece of gear in my rig.  

Needless to say, I am still tempted.  Such is the (relative) madness that this hobby can produce.

~DS

[denverdoc]

In some ways kind of discoraging tenor to this thread--even when design and R/D costs are minimal, we have no choice but to DIY or pay ridiculous profit margin to firms on the leading edge of this technology.  Or wait until Integra/Sony/Yechnics/Samsung/etc  makes available the same amp at 1/5 the cost. At least Adire (may be others, if so apology offered) is showing some yankee entreprenurial spirit with their reasonably priced UCD based products.

This may be yet another area where the power of free speech and the internet has an opportunity to shine--bulletproof, good sounding schematic with easily obtainable parts for the 100w and up category.

John

[NealH]

All of our products carry the CE mark (it's on the box, not on the chassis). Our standard products use UL approved AC adapters, the VAC-1 and amplifiers are designed in accordance with UL safety guidelines, but are not submitted for test. We actually tried to do this and were told up to twelve months. We are still working on this but it isn't a requirement in most areas.

Just curious, are you self certifying or, are you having a accredited lab perform the EMC and low voltage testing?

[DeanSheen]

In some ways kind of discoraging tenor to this thread--even when design and R/D costs are minimal, we have no choice but to DIY or pay ridiculous profit margin to firms on the leading edge of this technology.  Or wait until Integra/Sony/Yechnics/Samsung/etc  makes available the same amp at 1/5 the cost. At least Adire (may be others, if so apology offered) is showing some yankee entreprenurial spirit with their reasonably priced UCD based products.

This may be yet another area where the power of free sp ...

errr UHHH  ............ AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[muralman1]

The H2O houses expensive electronics. The chassis itself is expensive. There is very little profit to be had in these amps. It is a known fact by people who are familiar with amps, there is no free lunch when building an audiophile amp.

Knowing live music well, I can see no need to change out amps in the foreseeable future. Give the H2O a great front end, and let your hair grow long.

[denverdoc]

What expensive electronics are you referring to? The amp boards sans supply are what a few bucks? At least the TI offerings and Tripath Godzilla boards are costing that. Personally, I have no idea what the profit margin is and should likely refrain from shooting my mouth on that particular issue, and just bide my time until a fully modular setup like the Flying Moles comes down the pike at a fraction of its cost and vote with my pocket book. Shouldn't be much of a wait at this point,
John

[muralman1]

The boards themselves don't cost much. Having them produced does add to the overall cost. We are talking about a $2,500 amp. The chassis, I've been told, cost over $400 per amp. The toroid is another $800. There is 80,000 uV capacitance. The module is another chunk. Add in all the top quality gizmos (I'm no techy), and you can see things get expensive. Don't forget the packaging, hours of work, overhead.... and more.

[J North]

H20 Audio won't last long at those prices and costs unless they are doing this out of a passion or hobby and have another source of income.

Should be at least a 4 to 1 ratio of price to materials cost.
Some gear runs up to 10 to 1!

From Muralman's numbers, it is less than 2 to 1 for H20. Ouch.

[muralman1]

You made my point. Henry Ho's first priority was to make the best amp he is capable of regardless of cost. Selling direct gives him the freedom to provide his best. The business has been evolving for a year now. Two reviewers will have amps soon.

[angelo]

The boards themselves don't cost much. Having them produced does add to the overall cost. We are talking about a $2,500 amp. The chassis, I've been told, cost over $400 per amp. The toroid is another $800. There is 80,000 uV capacitance. The module is another chunk. Add in all the top quality gizmos (I'm no techy), and you can see things get expensive. Don't forget the packaging, hours of work, overhead.... and more.

there's no way the chassis can cost $400 per amp, maybe ~$100, and i don't think you can fit an $800 toroid transformer inside that chassis

angelo

[mac]

The boards themselves don't cost much. Having them produced does add to the overall cost. We are talking about a $2,500 amp. The chassis, I've been told, cost over $400 per amp. The toroid is another $800. There is 80,000 uV capacitance. The module is another chunk. Add in all the top quality gizmos (I'm no techy), and you can see things get expensive. Don't forget the packaging, hours of work, overhead.... and more.

$400 for a chassis?  I'll pass.  Par-Metals will sell you a very nice one for about $45.

$800 for a transformer?  My gawd, I didn't know one could even spend that much for a toroid for power amplifier duty.  A nice big 800VA Avel/Llindberg or Piltron costs about $70 at retail.

Guess I'll be sticking to DIY for awhile.  

[denverdoc]

Mac,
My man, you tooks the words out of me mouth--I have had occasion to price toroid trannies here of recent, and 400 USD will get you one off at consumer level able to supply a good ole fashioned Class AB amp of twice the H2O's power. AS to chassis, the H20 enclosures are nice if not exactly pre-possesing as in sculpted/milled aluminum. 2500 still seems a lot to pony up, but you know when you make 500 or 1000  bucks/hr and the comparable class ab amp from rowland (strike that hasn't Jeff gone Class D?)--say Levinson or Classe Omega series are running much more, no wonder folks consider it a bargain.
John

[muralman1]

Hold on you guys. The transformer quote I offered is one I got off the net from some manufacturer in Maryland. That is what they are charging. 1kW transformers are hard to source. The pretty chassis you see on commercial components are sourced from China. The 3" Al plates on the H2O are milled, and anodized in the USA.

Don't let the power rating fool you. I was running ss amps with two and a half times the power rating, that can't hold a candle to the H2O in USABLE power. The H2O is 93% efficient.

I remember some wisened fellow saying, at the Asylum, audiophile amps will never come cheap, because for linearity they need a great analog power supply, and that is what the H2O has.

[mac]

1kW transformers are hard to source.

Avel/Lindberg sells a 1kW transformer for about $86.  Piltron's cost just a little bit more.

The pretty chassis you see on commercial components are sourced from China. The 3" Al plates on the H2O are milled, and anodized in the USA.

I'm sure if one wanted to spend even more than $400 for a chassis it would be possible.  Some might even argue that it would affect the sound quality.  

[muralman1]

I'm listening to the H2O playing Vivaldi on my Scintillas as I write.

Mac, with all due respect, I have seen your UCD creation, and it's looks leave something to be desired.    

Henry considered sheet-metal, but prefers the heavier plates. He isn't the only amp builder who has done so. These enclosures do not come cheep.  

.

[denverdoc]

"Mac, with all due respect, I have seen your UCD creation, and it's looks leave something to be desired.  

Henry considered sheet-metal, but prefers the heavier plates. He isn't the only amp builder who has done so. These enclosures do not come cheep."


Mac, personally I don't care if it is built in a Cheerios box, so long AS  it can do its job which in this context might be considered as holding its own in any abx test against the H20 with any man made load this end of a short.

 Of course if you're into audio jewelry, and need visual reassurance that a product kicks ass and your money has been well spent.... well join the countless. Amps ought to be heard and not seen, and invest the money saved  on some real art--hey even music qualifies! Of course, many who are insistent on paying 5 to 50 K for amps, usually decry any sort of blind testing, wouldn't you?  
John

[muralman1]

being an artist type person, I salivate at a redesign enclosure for the H2O. I see wave engraved stainless sheet steel in a tear drop form      

Only thing, that would drive the cost up some two fold!