System Synergy with M3TM

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Wind Chaser

Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #20 on: 16 Sep 2019, 05:02 pm »
It's not a flat 2-3db dip, more like a sine wave of ups and downs all the way till 10khz. At 2500hz there was a 3db dip, but more severely from 1800-2200hz, where it drops as much as 4-7db.

What makes it so much more prominent is that across the mids (300-600hz), there are peaks of 5-10db...

Can you post an image of your measurements? I’m not an expert on this subject and I know in room response isn’t the same as anechoic, but I do recall Danny/GR Research saying something about measuring a speakers FR and that most people get it wrong.

Nonetheless I’m not doubting what you have found. I can hear certain tonal anomalies but I find the prevalence of those aberrations really depends on what I’m listening too. Some speakers are more linear than others and those that deviate more, especially in the mids never seem to sound right no matter what’s played. I do not find that to be the case with the M3ts.

Wind Chaser

Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #21 on: 16 Sep 2019, 05:11 pm »
Just bypassing the built in dac from the mini doesn't automatically mean all signals are the same.

So what other devices have you compared to the Mini strictly in the capacity of handling the digital stream and with which DACs did you do this comparison?  And is it fair to say that synergy or the lack thereof may matter between the two devices?

HanaEyes

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #22 on: 17 Sep 2019, 04:26 am »
Can you post an image of your measurements? I’m not an expert on this subject and I know in room response isn’t the same as anechoic, but I do recall Danny/GR Research saying something about measuring a speakers FR and that most people get it wrong.

Nonetheless I’m not doubting what you have found. I can hear certain tonal anomalies but I find the prevalence of those aberrations really depends on what I’m listening too. Some speakers are more linear than others and those that deviate more, especially in the mids never seem to sound right no matter what’s played. I do not find that to be the case with the M3ts.

Attaching a picture of my setup and the measurements, done using REW with the umik-1 mic. I know measurements are one thing, and they are being affected by my room/equipment/cables etc. Despite all that, I still think the m4tm does a lot of things right and it is still going to be with me for awhile (till I bite the bullet and get the x5)






HanaEyes

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #23 on: 17 Sep 2019, 06:14 am »
So what other devices have you compared to the Mini strictly in the capacity of handling the digital stream and with which DACs did you do this comparison?  And is it fair to say that synergy or the lack thereof may matter between the two devices?

I only managed to try it against a chord hugo TT in a head-fi setting (audiovalve solaris amp + he1000 v2 headphones). Sure there might be lack of synergy, but usually synergy is more apparent/important between amp/speakers or dac/amp. For digital transport, I have yet to hear a good transport sounding bad due to lack of synergy with other dacs.

When Auralic came out with the Mini, I was quite excited because I liked how the Aries sounded with the Vega. But hearing the Mini for the first time (not optimised of course, definitely better with a lps), left me wanting a bit more. This wasn't the case with the stock sms200, and I haven't looked back since. I've always been a digital person and those simple 1s and 0s.. is actually a bitch to get it sounding right. I'm not saying the sms200 is the best transport, but in comparison to the mini, I think it edges it in resolution and dynamic punch as a pure transport.

Living in Singapore, I consider myself lucky to be able to hear a wide variety of setups at my fingertips. At least 6 friends live within a 5-10min drive, with vastly differently setups. Wilsons, GoldenEar, Kef, Vivid, Spendor, and also.. another Spatial owner :). A 10min walk from my office is a 4 storey shopping mall, dedicated to all sorts of high to ultra high end audio equipment. From budget 4-digit setups till those in the millions, I've had the opportunity to access and listen to all sorts of stuff quite easily.

Despite all this, I settled on Spatial Audio as my choice of speakers (contenders were the Gradient Helsinki and Boenicke W5). Clayton's design really checked many boxes for me, detailed bass without room interaction, wide open staging, minimalistic looking and quite affordable. Are they perfect? Of course not. But the things it does right far outweigh any shortcomings it might have. Do all my friends like how it sounds? Of course not! The open baffle sound takes time to get used to, and are seen as a kind of 'novelty' compared to regular boxed speakers. At the end of the day, it's more important I love them since they are what I come home to everyday :)

rikkitik

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #24 on: 17 Sep 2019, 07:01 pm »
Attaching a picture of my setup and the measurements, done using REW with the umik-1 mic. I know measurements are one thing, and they are being affected by my room/equipment/cables etc. Despite all that, I still think the m4tm does a lot of things right and it is still going to be with me for awhile (till I bite the bullet and get the x5)



As an REW user, (and previous owner of the M3TM's), I believe your measurements are being heavily influenced by the room.
 Open baffle speakers are difficult to measure accurately to begin with, but most any speaker needs a minimum of 6ft to the nearest room boundary to get even close to accurate results.
 Your results appear to be affected by "comb" effects. This is, at least partially, due to the gating used during data collection. ARTA is a bit more flexible with gating than REW. Thought REW does allow you to change the gating.
 I don't currently have access to my M3TM measurements, but IIRC, there was a mild depression in the midrange, but they had generally smooth response. Are your measurements at 1 meter, on axis, or at the listening position?
 Morgan, sorry to sidetrack your thread.
 - Rick
« Last Edit: 17 Sep 2019, 09:57 pm by rikkitik »

morganc

Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #25 on: 17 Sep 2019, 08:49 pm »
No Problemo on the side tracking......I am learning a lot from this thread.

HanaEyes

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #26 on: 18 Sep 2019, 04:04 am »
As an REW user, (and previous owner of the M3TM's), I believe your measurements are being heavily influenced by the room.
 Open baffle speakers are difficult to measure accurately to begin with, but most any speaker needs a minimum of 6ft to the nearest room boundary to get even close to accurate results.
 Your results appear to be affected by "comb" effects. This is, at least partially, due to the gating used during data collection. ARTA is a bit more flexible with gating than REW. Thought REW does allow you to change the gating.
 I don't currently have access to my M3TM measurements, but IIRC, there was a mild depression in the midrange, but they had generally smooth response. Are your measurements at 1 meter, on axis, or at the listening position?
 Morgan, sorry to sidetrack your thread.
 - Rick

Hi Rick, thanks for your input! These measurements are done from my listening position. To everyone, these are NOT the actual response of the M4TM in an ideal measuring environment, on axis. This response is unique to my room, and its acoustics. I didn't overly smoothen the graph as I was trying to capture what I was facing in a 'real world' environment, with reflections and whatnot.

The other M3TM I heard was with listening position against the wall, speakers about 2ft from the front wall and sides that extend down the corridor, vastly different from my closed room setting. However, there was still that dip when it transits from the high mids to highs. Nevertheless, I will try to reach out to other Spatial owners in the country and see if I give their setups a listen.

Would you be able to suggest what I can do to improve the sound I'm getting? I've tried pulling the speakers further into the room, or closer together, added foam panels and whatnot, but every gain resulted in loss in other areas. This current position seems to be the best compromise, but if anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears!

And yes, sorry Morgan for derailing the thread. I'm actually very curious how the Cherry amps sound in comparison to the Kinki. With Kinki, I got a taste of high end performance at a fraction of the price. No doubt not as refined as some high end offerings, but good enough to keep in this setup. Despite being accessible to many high end equipment, offerings from less mainstream brands always pique my interest, and these are the ones that aren't readily accessible here :(

JackD

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #27 on: 18 Sep 2019, 04:26 am »
HanaEyes

I have owned the EX-M1 for over a year and in my Main system with both the Verity Otello's and the Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee's it doesn't take a back seat to any of the other amps that have been in that system including the PS Audio BHK pair that retail for over six times it's cost.  I haven't tried it with the M3TM's in the other system but I am sure it would shine there too.  It is everything the reviewers say it is.

HanaEyes

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #28 on: 18 Sep 2019, 05:26 am »
HanaEyes

I have owned the EX-M1 for over a year and in my Main system with both the Verity Otello's and the Reynaud Abscissa Jubilee's it doesn't take a back seat to any of the other amps that have been in that system including the PS Audio BHK pair that retail for over six times it's cost.  I haven't tried it with the M3TM's in the other system but I am sure it would shine there too.  It is everything the reviewers say it is.

I too have been an EX-M1 owner for over a year. Happy to report they pair wonderfully with the Spatials! But wow, impressive speakers you're pairing your Kinki with. A friend of mine had the Finn and Parsifal, paired with full Nagras which I must admit, sounded absolutely wonderful. But reading your comments have me even more convinced the Kinki is a keeper, and also suppressed my urge of trying the Cherries... for now :P

As good as the EX-M1 is, it certainly isn't without some shortcomings. At a friend's place, we did a side by side comparison against his Esoteric F-03A which costs $13,000. The Esoteric had a more extended and refined top end, higher resolution, and slightly more naturalness in the mids. Other aspects (soundstage, dynamics etc) were too close for me to confidently differentiate one amp from the other, which I see as a huge win for the Kinki.

rikkitik

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #29 on: 18 Sep 2019, 09:36 pm »
HanaEyes,
 One quick suggestion. Try using the REW "monitor" function and use the pink noise generator. That way you should be able to see the live response, and "usually", a more accurate depiction of what you are hearing. REW is a great program, but can be a bit tricky to set up. Another "educational" exercise that can be a surprise experience is, use the signal generator to produce a 35-40hz tone, then walk around the room while it's playing. The null and resonance "zones" can be an eye opener if you've never experienced it.
 Also, when moving the speakers position, I typically ignore the measured response, and go by my ears. I try to be very methodical with measurements (distance wise), and find that a half inch one way or the other can go from "meh" to VERY good.
 I don't want to tie up this thread too much, plus "we" (wife and I) are on the return leg of Yellowstone / Tetons back to California.
 I can PM you, if you wish, once we are home.
 Cheers - Rick

morganc

Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #30 on: 27 Sep 2019, 07:12 pm »
Back on Topic and Update:
 Current System:
M3TM
Digital Amp:  King Cherry Stereo
MHDT Atlantis DAC
IC:  High Fidelity CT-1 Enhanced RCA
Streamer:  Auralic Aries with LPS

So I changed the IC's from the Anti-Cables RCA's to a pair of HF CT-1E's and wow, huge improvement across the board! Massive improvement in all genres, tone, timbre, etc.

I then exchanged the Auralic Mini for the Auralic Aries with LPS and am loving the new upgrades.  I did not fully do a detailed A/B the Auralic Mini to the Aries, but I have used the Aries in the past in my Super V system, and feel it is reference level if used with a good DAC.  I may Go back and forth if I have the time, though I cannot imagine the that Aries with LPS could be inferior to the Mini without the LPS. 

I am still using the Anti-Cable SC's as well as an AC USB Cable.  I will likely A/B test a few more options there when funds become available and after selling off a bit of gear, and letting the current changes settle in. I do have a new 396A tube for the DAC on its way.

Would still like improvement on the bass ( I think the DAC tube will effect this) and its a little hot on the top end as well....

Wind Chaser

Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #31 on: 28 Sep 2019, 03:57 am »
So I changed the IC's from the Anti-Cables RCA's to a pair of HF CT-1E's and wow, huge improvement across the board! Massive improvement in all genres, tone, timbre, etc.

Not familiar with your new IC’s, but can’t say that I am surprised. Anti Cables and BJC are grossly overrated.

HanaEyes

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Re: System Synergy with M3TM
« Reply #32 on: 30 Sep 2019, 02:02 am »
You could try the speaker cables from Triode Wire Labs. These have awesome bass, great tone, details and a sweet top end without ever becoming fatiguing. Feel that Pete's SC are the least talked about in the TWL line-up but provides superb performance. They replaced cables that I previously used and still love, the Tellurium Q Ultra Blacks, and matches quite well in my setup.