[FreedomJazzDance]

Hello to all,

Curious to know if some vintage and very high end CD Players and Dacs, like the Yamaha Centennial CDX10000, or the Nakamichi Dragon CD and Dragon DAC, will be out performed easily by modern Dacs? or they are still relevant till this days?

The CD transport's build quality of such devices are undeniable top notch till this days, but what about the DACs?

Anyone had the experience of to listen to vintage high end CD players and DACs like this ones, and be surprised by the sound quality? when comparing with modern ones? even their DACs being considered obsolete on the present days...

Thanks!

[Bemopti123]

It all depends on what materials you want to play with your digital.  For those that still have physical CDs, older CD players are perfectly fine.  Nevertheless, there are many people who have their music in different high definition formats, for that you will need an up to date DAC that can decode high resolution formats.  Nevertheless...there is an irony in much of all of this, many people rip their physical CDs into high resolution formats, in other to facilitate their playback in a more convenient format, across the house and even on the go, but originally the CD in itself can be played more than respectably on a CD player.  The only thing that gets me a little leery about older models is the wear of the laser pick us.  Some of them might have been in service for 25-30 years.  So, unless you get a model that uses very common and readily available laser pick ups or transports, I would look at them from a distance.  There are several very well reviewed CDP out there that do not cost a whole lot.  A CD player I consider almost like a digital turntable with more bells and whistles.  Enjoy.

[audioengr]

All older digital gear like this should be avoided unless you are willing to spend a lot of money on mods to try to bring it up to date.  Even then, it will not perform like good modern gear.  This is not like older amps and preamps, which can be very good.

Jitter in this equipment is orders of magnitude higher than modern equipment.  Distortion and noise specs are much higher in older DACs than most modern DACs.  The D/A chips do not deliver the detail of modern chips.  Jitter from older transports is sky-high, typically 500psec compared to a modern transport at around 50 psec.  Reclockers can get you to 7psec.

The difference is better focus, imaging and dynamics.  More lifelike, more live-sounding.

[Rusty Jefferson]

The only exception I'd make to the above statements is players that decoded HDCD.  I have some HDCD discs that sound better on the player than ripped to the server and played back through a modern dac.

Other than that, using it as a transport is the only reason I have one.

[Elizabeth]

I take all the wow factor of current vs older with a BIG grain of salt. Yeah the new stuff is 'a little bit better' But NO ONE is going to go hang themselves because they listen to an old good CD player or DAC. I used a $1000 retail paid $250 for Adcom DA700 for YEARS, even returned a $2300 DAC (Bryston) in 2010 as 'no better'. And finally another eight year later buy a $7000 machine (Marantz SA-10) because yeah it IS a little bit better. Not OMG!!! better. just a LITTLE better.
So all the BS about modern DACS (being so spectacular) and old DACS (all POS) is malarky.
And I use a 1995 five disc CHANGER to my fancy $7000 machine, and it is only a TINY TINY bit less than playing a disc IN the $7000 Machine.
And I can hear.
Yeah there are junk machines, old stuff that suck. but there are good old machines that are very close in performance to modern stuff.

[SET Man]

Hello to all,

Curious to know if some vintage and very high end CD Players and Dacs, like the Yamaha Centennial CDX10000, or the Nakamichi Dragon CD and Dragon DAC, will be out performed easily by modern Dacs? or they are still relevant till this days?

The CD transport's build quality of such devices are undeniable top notch till this days, but what about the DACs?

Anyone had the experience of to listen to vintage high end CD players and DACs like this ones, and be surprised by the sound quality? when comparing with modern ones? even their DACs being considered obsolete on the present days...

Thanks!

Hey!

   Hard to say. Since I've never heard those super high end CDP/DAC you've mentioned I can't say for sure how they would compare to today's stuffs. But I think in gerneral most of the time CDPs and DACs today sound better than those 20 years ago. I think the improvement mostly due to how the newer today's DAC both stand alone or built in the CDP had improved a lot.

  But! And a big one... there are exceptions. I have been using a simple NOS DAC with Philips TDA1543 chip since 2006. And to me this DAC chip that first came out in the early '90s or was it late '80s... sound great to me, fluid and analog like than other DACs I've heard both in other's and in my own system. I remembered when the ESS Saber DAC came out, one of local member both it over to my place and I listened to it in my system. It was great in some way but at the end of the day I was happy to be back to listen to music through my simple NOS DAC again.

  I haven't been follow audio news much lately. So, I don't know how things are these days when is come to CDP and DAC. But I'm pretty happy with my CD playback set up... Sony CDR-W33 as transport and battery powered single TDA153 chip DAC... right now anyway.


Buddy

   

[Bemopti123]

I have several DACs, some with NOS chips, others newer ones that can decode higher resolution formats but in all honest reality I have not been able to truly hear all the improvements in the digital end that some people claim.  Perhaps they have better hearing or miles better equipment than I do...but in my personal collection, I have a 47 Labs Shigaraki transport connected to a Shigaraki NOS DAC with an improved PS for the Shigaraki DAC.  This has been a fixture on my system since around 2004.  The other integrated CD player I have is a Rega Planet Special Edition...which does not sound bad but was sent for refurbishment and repair around 3 years ago.  I also bought a Sony ES DVD carousel player for peanuts after I heard someone using it for a demo...around $200.  I mean, from the 3 pieces I have, if they did a blind test of the same songs, would I be able to distinguish them? Probably not.  I am more than satisfied with the Shigaraki which is one of the oldest pieces of gear I still own.  A fantastic DAC, that I do not use as a DAC but as a combined DAC/Headphone amplifier is the Chord MOJO.  But still.... I am not going to bother listing the DACs I own, which I seem to be collecting like those different restaurant matches.  Whatever plays your CDs fine is the CD player that will suit you.  Remember the piece about the CD transport or Laser pick still being available, specially if you get a really high end CDP.  If it goes bad...then you will be stuck with a fancy door stop. 

[Rocket]

Hi Elizabeth,

For what its worth I agree with your statement regarding DAC's and CD players.  I use an Eastern Electric Dac with DEXA opamps and yes it sounds very nice.  I also have a Perpetual Technologies Modwright P3A which is almost as good from the early 2000's.

Cheers Rod

[JLM]

Different folks have different sensitivities to different gear.  I'm a speaker guy. 

To answer the question - mostly not (vintage media would be the exception).  When it breaks replace with something new and consider the new pieces to be disposable (don't over spend) as the technology keeps marches forward.  And look into streaming. 

[rooze]

I’ve never had a ‘wow’ moment listening to anything digital. At least not in the sense of thinking that a unit does so much more than other units at a similar price.
Differences I’ve heard between older gear and new gear in a comparable price range have been subtle and not always positive in favor of new.

There’s some fantastic older stuff floating around and if you don’t mind taking a little risk (prospect of a difficult repair) then I say go for it.
Rooze

[fredgarvin]

Audioengr is, of course, correct. The new stuff is better. The magnitude of better is measurable but how much one thinks it sounds better to oneself is subjective.

[Elizabeth]

Audioengr is, of course, correct. The new stuff is better. The magnitude of better is measurable but how much one thinks it sounds better to oneself is subjective.

It is interesting the folks generalizing via theory and general ideas say way better, the folks who actually listened to, and used older gear , and new, say not much difference.
So I guess you can pick the theory camp, or the practical usage camp and go from there.

[G.Michael]

It is interesting the folks generalizing via theory and general ideas say way better, the folks who actually listened to, and used older gear , and new, say not much difference. So I guess you can pick the theory camp, or the practical usage camp and go from there.

After 20+ years of rolling through various digital disc spinners, a couple years ago I bought a Pioneer DV-09 (circa 2000) from a friend of mine.  It's 35 pounds of overbuilt goodness, with ladder DAC.  I used it as a backup--In other words, it sat on the shelf unused for a year.  After selling off some other digital hardware, I gave it a serious listen.  It's now my main digital front end piece for redbook CD and DVD.

[fredgarvin]

It is interesting the folks generalizing via theory and general ideas say way better, the folks who actually listened to, and used older gear , and new, say not much difference.
So I guess you can pick the theory camp, or the practical usage camp and go from there.

i don't think there are any such camps. A lot to one person is a little to another. That's what subjectivity is all about. I'm not sure why you think people are theorizing, because you don't share their experience.

[rollo]

  I say yes and no. The  DACs that sounded VG then still sound VG good today. As good as State of the Art today NO. Too many improvements in parts, power supplies and chips or R2R.
  My CEC 01 [ 20K] transport can not match my newer dedicated transport [9K]. What one would pay 5K then would pay less than half for todays better performance. iFi anybody ? Todays Inexpensive Chinese DACs ?
  Then there is choice of DAC, transport and player. Not all equal. Just because a machine is ?K that does not make it worth ?K. What makes it worth it is how it sounds. My new ladder DAC outperforms with ease the Theta 5 and EAD. Promithius DAC as well.
  Another reason digital has lesser resale value than say a good amp. Todays digital is better all around. Closer to analog than ever before in 3D imaging, sound stage, harmonics and in lots of cases better.
  Agree about HDCD on older DAC. My favorite format is still DVD Audio.  So I guess it is good enough instead of thats great.


charles

[mix4fix]

I take all the wow factor of current vs older with a BIG grain of salt. Yeah the new stuff is 'a little bit better' But NO ONE is going to go hang themselves because they listen to an old good CD player or DAC. I used a $1000 retail paid $250 for Adcom DA700 for YEARS, even returned a $2300 DAC (Bryston) in 2010 as 'no better'. And finally another eight year later buy a $7000 machine (Marantz SA-10) because yeah it IS a little bit better. Not OMG!!! better. just a LITTLE better.
So all the BS about modern DACS (being so spectacular) and old DACS (all POS) is malarky.
And I use a 1995 five disc CHANGER to my fancy $7000 machine, and it is only a TINY TINY bit less than playing a disc IN the $7000 Machine.
And I can hear.
Yeah there are junk machines, old stuff that suck. but there are good old machines that are very close in performance to modern stuff.

I know I would love to scoop up a lightly used Marantz Reference player for dirt cheap. These guys make it sound like it is complete junk unless it is not brand new.

[mr_bill]

The differences in old good digital to new digital is very small, subtle.

[Tyson]

Newer digital is definitely more sophisticated when it comes to things like sampling rates, jitter and galvanic isolation.  Older digital seems to have more robust power supplies.  Both things matter.  Thing like the iFi equipment are very good, but will leapfrog in performance if you get rid of the SMPS and use a real (linear) power supply instead.   

[mojave]

The only exception I'd make to the above statements is players that decoded HDCD.  I have some HDCD discs that sound better on the player than ripped to the server and played back through a modern dac.

Other than that, using it as a transport is the only reason I have one.

JRiver Media Center recently starting supporting auto detection and playback of HDCD content.

NEW: HDCD Detection and Playback

[FullRangeMan]

In the 1990s the Audio us mag tested HDCD and results was less than great at the point that JVC XRCD was better, it was not the best invention of Prof.Johnson.