New Versions of Alpha LS?

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dpetey

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« on: 4 Feb 2005, 05:56 am »
Danny,
I just recently ran across this forum and am very intrigued by the Alpha LS.  What an impressive looking speaker!  I'm hopefully going to be putting together a home theater system soon, and I've been researching what to do for the audio setup.  I currently own Onix Rockets which I really like, but I want something a bit more dynamic for a dedicated theater.  To accomplish that I looked at horn-loaded designs, then discovered line source speakers and the DIY world.  Having never heard a line source speaker, I'm assuming they rival horn-loaded speakers for efficiency and dynamics.  Hopefully I'm not too far off-base there.  I'm currently deciding whether to design my own line-source LCR and surrounds, or buy a kit such as the Alpha.  So, that leads me to my question.  Could you shed some light on what the new LS designs will consist of?  How will they differ from the current one?  Will you have matching surround designs available?  Also, I'm not sure how you select your drivers, but the new Extremis 6.8 from Adire has caught my eye.  It would seem to be a great fit for a high-end LS design, although I admit I don't know enough about speaker design to really understand all the variables yet.  Have you considered doing an LS design using the Extremis?  I was also looking at perhaps the Aurum Cantus G2, G2si, or maybe even the G3si as a tweeter, although I don't really know how those tweeters compare to the Neo8.  Anyway, I guess that's enough rambling.  Is there anything you can share with us about the new LS designs, and/or what timeframes you're looking at for plans/kits to be available?

Thanks!
Dave Peterschmidt

Danny Richie

New line sources.
« Reply #1 on: 4 Feb 2005, 05:16 pm »
Okay, here is the update on the progress.

There will be no more ALpha LS kits sold through GR Research, but some can be purchased from Creative Sound Solutions in Canada.

The Alpha was the first and there can be no more first.

We are replacing the Alpha with two new models, the LS-6 and LS-9.

Driver selection involves all custom built units just for this application.

The new woofers are going to be a real gem. They are a new 6.5" woofer custom built just for use in line source applications.

They use the same polymer type frame used in our M-130 woofers. This is a non resonance design that allows surface mounting. It looks great. The motor structure includes Neo magnets too.



Impedance is 4 ohms to allow two grouping of eight drivers yielding 8 ohms and to closely match the tweeter output level. Minimum dip should be in the 6.8 ohm range. This also allows three groups of four drivers to be used (12 total per speaker !) that with added DCR of the network should yield about 6 ohms of impedance and a minimum of around 5.2. The network could make these figures slightly higher still.

For you guys that can crunch the numbers here are all the specs:

 "Method: Fixed-Mmd (20.59 grams)"
 "DCR mode: Fixed (3.11 ohms)"
 "Area (Sd): 137.07 sq cm"
 "Series resistance: 100.00 ohms"
 "Stimulus level: 1.74 volts"
     0.458 "RMSE-free Ohms"
    32.225 "Fs Hz"
     3.110 "Re Ohms"
    16.715 "Res Ohms"
     2.251 "Qms "
     0.419 "Qes "
     0.353 "Qts "
     0.225 "L1 mH"
     0.387 "L2 mH"
     3.704 "R2 Ohms"
     0.000 "RMSE-load Ohms"
    29.940 "Vas(Sd) liters"
    21.498 "Mms(Sd) grams"
  1134.627 "Cms(Sd) æM/Newton"
     5.686 "Bl(Sd) Tesla-M"
    89.721 "SPLref(Sd) dB[8 ohms]"

And yes these were designed to play low. In a standard optimal ported enclosure a single unit will play to a -3db of 42.5Hz.

In the EBS type alignment that these will be loaded in, the roll off is more gradual and more extended. The network used on these is similar to a standard baffle step compensation circuit but it starts much lower in range. It pulls 3db of output from them and makes what was the -6db down point the new -3db down point, which is 30Hz. Model this and see for yourself. Each woofer will need .7cubic feet and a tuning frequency of 30Hz.

Now running a line of them adds low end extension due to the collective gain of the array. On the larger unit there should be about 6 to 8 hertz more extension. This will put the -3db down point in the mid to low 20's with the speed and quickness of a small driver.  :mrgreen:

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Also, I'm not sure how you select your drivers, but the new Extremis 6.8 from Adire has caught my eye.


Feel free to run the numbers on those too. I have. Our new woofer plays just as low, but does not have the extreme X-max of the XBL^ motor technology. But then again using this many of them, X-max is a non-issue as they may never see output levels that would push them to even half their X-max.

Plus, with our woofer there is the lush natural sound of the treated paper, curvilinear shaped cone. It also has a really smooth response throughout its range.

Right now the woofers show a little bit of break-up above 4.5kHz. This is no big deal if only used with the new custom planar magnetic tweeters crossed in the 1kHz to 1.2kHz range. But I might also want to use these woofers with some of the true ribbons like the G3si which would require crossing in the 2kHz to 2.5kHz range. So I have them working on the upper end break-up to see if it can be minimized. I am looking for a flat response with no break-up into the 6kHz range. So the specs could still shift around slightly if needed to remedy this.

The new tweeters are being custom built by BG. They are a new 8 ohm Neo 8 PDR. DCR should be about 6.8 ohms. This will allow a grouping of six units wired as two groups of three giving about a 10 ohm load (maybe less with network), or wired as three groups of two for an impedance in the 4.5 ohm range. It just depends on the needed output level to match the woofers. For the larger unit using nine of these units, they will be wired as three groups of three to get right back to a 6.8 ohm load that could be slightly less with the network.

These new PDR versions will also have a wider horizontal off axis response and a more extended top end that previous Neo 8's.

Target price for the kits are $1,500. a pair for the LS-6 (6 Neo's and 8 woofers per side) and $2,000. a pair for the LS-9 (9 Neo's and 12 woofers per side). We'll see what the numbers come to in the end.

Due to delayed time involved in driver design I am guessing these to be ready by the end of April, sooner if I'm lucky. So hold on.

As for these questions:

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Having never heard a line source speaker, I'm assuming they rival horn-loaded speakers for efficiency and dynamics.


Yes, and then some. Plus, the line sources have the advantage of lower distortion, and loses of only 3db per doubling of distance instead of 6db per doubling of distance from a horn loaded speaker.

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Will you have matching surround designs available?


Clearly both models could be used as rear surrounds. Hopefully in a large room. However, I do have a few ideas for some smaller surrounds and a center using the same drivers and the addition of a Neo 3 PDR. I might even use my M-130 woofers in those applications to get them down to a more reasonable size.

First things first, just hang tight. Cool new stuff is on the way for 2005!

Anymore questions?

BikeWNC

New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #2 on: 4 Feb 2005, 06:18 pm »
Sounds great Danny, will cabinets be available for the LS-6 and LS-9?

Andy

Danny Richie

Cabinets
« Reply #3 on: 4 Feb 2005, 06:49 pm »
Quote
Sounds great Danny, will cabinets be available for the LS-6 and LS-9?


Not at first, but eventually.

dpetey

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Feb 2005, 08:47 pm »
Danny, thanks for the reply.  The new designs sound quite excellent.  Are the extension figures you gave anechoic or in-room?

I'm still new to the line source concept, as well as speaker design in general, so I'm trying to wrap my head around it to see if it's the route I want to pursue.  Will these new designs have the same kind of efficiency as the Alpha?  I believe the website said that at 4 meters they were equivalent to a point source speaker with 99dB/1 watt/1 meter?  Basically I'm looking for a speaker that will be capable of bursts in the 120dB area with a reasonable sized amp (~200wpc) (if that's even possible).  Will these be efficient enough to do something like that?  I want those gunshots and explosions to kick me right in the chest and sound REAL doing it...  :uzi:   I'm going to cross over to an IB sub at about 80hz to handle the low end.  

Ok, enough on that.  My other concerns are the matching center and surrounds.  I like the surround design you have where the driver face is pointing up and out.  Sounds like it would be effective.  If I was really putting out my wishlist, I'd like to have a mini-LS array on something like that.  Again, I'd like them to be able to pump out some serious SPL, at least in brief bursts, and they'd need to be able to handle several hundred watts.  For the center, I'd like a speaker similar to the LS mains, horizontally mountable, but still with controlled vertical dispersion.  That means the Neo8 tweeters couldn't be laying on their sides, I believe, right?   You couldn't just tip over one of the towers, remove the base, and use it as a center without getting some serious ceiling reflections, I would think.  That means a different form factor for the center.  :(

My desire with this theater is to not be lacking for anything in the audio department.  I'm not sure if I'm asking for too much here or not.   :)   I may have to design the pieces from the ground up to get exactly what I have in mind, but I wanted to check out what your future plans were before I decided on that route.

Also, I'm intrigued by your idea of using the G3si.  Would that design be a line source or conventional?

Thanks again for the info, Danny.

Dave

Danny Richie

Answers
« Reply #5 on: 4 Feb 2005, 11:16 pm »
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Are the extension figures you gave anechoic or in-room?


Those do not include room interaction.

Quote
Will these new designs have the same kind of efficiency as the Alpha?


The smaller one will be less by about 1/2 of a db. The larger one will be greater by at least 1 full db.

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I believe the website said that at 4 meters they were equivalent to a point source speaker with 99dB/1 watt/1 meter?


Yep, the Alpha LS measured at 93db with 1 watt/1 meter.

If a point source speaker hit 99db with 1 watt/1 meter, then at 2 meters it will hit 93db, and the Alpha LS will hit 90db (still with just 1 watt). At 4 meters (doubling distance again) the point source will be hitting 87db with 1 watt and the Alpha LS will also be hitting 87db with 1 watt.

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Basically I'm looking for a speaker that will be capable of bursts in the 120dB area with a reasonable sized amp (~200wpc) (if that's even possible).


That is not a problem. I have heard the Alphas do that on occasion. I wouldn't recommend it though. That is really way too loud.

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Will these be efficient enough to do something like that?


Not a problem.

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I'm going to cross over to an IB sub at about 80hz to handle the low end.


Eeeeeek, I wouldn't do that. I would never even consider playing a sub above the first octave with these (20 to 40Hz). There are not any subs out there that will do what a good line source of smaller drivers can do covering the same range. Plus, running a sub that high gets very directional and will degrade the sound stage size as the lows will collapse down to a single point.

If you have the space and really want the end all be all system then use an array of subs. The effortless low distortion of multiple woofers is night and day better than one IB loaded design beating its ass off.

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Ok, enough on that. My other concerns are the matching center and surrounds. I like the surround design you have where the driver face is pointing up and out. Sounds like it would be effective.


That method does work really well.

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I'd like to have a mini-LS array on something like that. Again, I'd like them to be able to pump out some serious SPL, at least in brief bursts, and they'd need to be able to handle several hundred watts.


Mounting an array like that is not an easy task and considering the original intent of the signal to the surrounds and what it is for, a line source mounted that way will really not recreate it.

Surround speakers mostly handle non-localized effects and are supposed to add a sense of space and size to the sound field, beyond the size of the room. You won't need a lot of power to do that either.

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For the center, I'd like a speaker similar to the LS mains, horizontally mountable, but still with controlled vertical dispersion.


My good friends from Epiphany audio have been doing that with their largest line source. It works pretty well so long as your seating position is within the length of the array.

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You couldn't just tip over one of the towers, remove the base, and use it as a center without getting some serious ceiling reflections, I would think.


Vertically it is no different than a point source type speaker that uses a single tweeter, as it throws a sound field in all directions.

Listening to one oriented that way I did note that there were no side wall reflections throughout all the ranges above bass and mid-bass areas, and it did tend to localize center dialog very well.

Quote
Also, I'm intrigued by your idea of using the G3si. Would that design be a line source or conventional?


Only as a line source.

NealH

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Feb 2005, 11:25 pm »
I hope the new cabinets will not weigh so much.  

Do you have a rough idea of the overall dimensions?

Rob Babcock

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #7 on: 4 Feb 2005, 11:27 pm »
The notion of running a pair of tower subwoofer arrays of 4 or 5 Adire Shivas/Tempests per side has always intrigued me, but I wasn't sure it would "work."  Maybe it's something to look into, though.  Somewhere down the line, that is.

Danny Richie

New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Feb 2005, 11:37 pm »
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I hope the new cabinets will not weigh so much.


The Alpha LS cabinets were 1.5" thick (two layers of MDF) and had some bracing.

The new ones will be only 3/4" think but will have lots of braces. Dampening material like Blackhole 5 will also be recommended. As a result, the cabinets should be just as solid if not more so and not weigh quite as much.

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Do you have a rough idea of the overall dimensions?


Width will be no more than 12.5" on both units. The LS-6 is going to be in the 5'4" range while the LS-9 will be in the 6'8" range.

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The notion of running a pair of tower subwoofer arrays of 4 or 5 Adire Shivas/Tempests per side has always intrigued me, but I wasn't sure it would "work."


Oh yea buddy it works alright! It doesn't have to be standing up in a tower either. They can be laid down flat all in horizontal line.

Rob Babcock

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #9 on: 4 Feb 2005, 11:51 pm »
I realize this is not a GR Research topic, so I'll understand if you don't want to address it, but if you did make a vertical array of four or five sub drivers (a better option IMO just because, like a skyscraper, you can always go up but you don't always have extra square footage of floor) is it better generally to go with a large one chamber cabinet or to divide it internally into smaller subenclosures?

BradJudy

Re: Answers
« Reply #10 on: 5 Feb 2005, 12:19 am »
Quote from: Danny
My good friends from Epiphany audio have been doing that with their largest line source. It works pretty well so long as your seating position is within the length of the array.


I can't resist throwing a pic in here because it looks quite impressive :D


dpetey

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #11 on: 5 Feb 2005, 01:03 am »
Quote
Quote:
I'm going to cross over to an IB sub at about 80hz to handle the low end.  


Eeeeeek, I wouldn't do that. I would never even consider playing a sub above the first octave with these (20 to 40Hz). There are not any subs out there that will do what a good line source of smaller drivers can do covering the same range. Plus, running a sub that high gets very directional and will degrade the sound stage size as the lows will collapse down to a single point.


If you have the space and really want the end all be all system then use an array of subs. The effortless low distortion of multiple woofers is night and day better than one IB loaded design beating its ass off.


Danny, thanks again for your comments.  The sub I have in mind will be an array of sub drivers, capable of generating SPLs in the mid 120dB range down to 10hz.  It'll have plenty of horsepower to match the mains.  It's going to be an infinite baffle design using quad Ascendant Audio Avalanche 18s with a big amp to drive them.  No problems there.  The reason I was going to cross them at 80hz was due to a white paper I recently read which stated that with most current audio equipment, if you set your mains to small, the processor sums the redirected bass and the LFE before applying the xover, which means you lose any LFE above your xover point.  I would run the mains as large except there are some soundtrack mixers that put most of the LFE info in the mains instead of the LFE channel.  I don't want my mains trying to handle subsonic frequencies - even a line source wouldn't handle that like a big sub would.  I want those frequencies going to the sub no matter how the disc was mixed.  That led me to the thought of setting the mains to small but crossing over at 80 to preserve most of the LFE info, which can contain signal as high as 120hz.  I'm not sure there are any good alternatives to this approach until Hollywood starts putting all the LFE info where it belongs.  At least that's the way I understand it right now.

Quote
Quote:
I'd like to have a mini-LS array on something like that. Again, I'd like them to be able to pump out some serious SPL, at least in brief bursts, and they'd need to be able to handle several hundred watts.  


Mounting an array like that is not an easy task and considering the original intent of the signal to the surrounds and what it is for, a line source mounted that way will really not recreate it.


For the surrounds I wouldn't need anywhere near a full size array.  I would think something like three woofers and tweeters, perhaps.


Quote
My good friends from Epiphany audio have been doing that with their largest line source. It works pretty well so long as your seating position is within the length of the array.

Vertically it is no different than a point source type speaker that uses a single tweeter, as it throws a sound field in all directions.

Listening to one oriented that way I did note that there were no side wall reflections throughout all the ranges above bass and mid-bass areas, and it did tend to localize center dialog very well.


I read somewhere that the Neo8 has limited disperson vertically when mounted vertically.  If you flip it on it's side, it would have limited horizontal dispersion, which seems to correlate with what you experienced, right?  I was thinking along the lines of a horizontal center which had a four-faceted front, each facet facing a slightly different direction into the room, and each one having one woofer and one vertically mounted tweeter.  I imagine it'd be quite a challenge to build a cabinet like that.  At least, that was my thought...   :D

ekovalsky

Re: Answers
« Reply #12 on: 5 Feb 2005, 01:14 am »
Quote from: BradJudy
I can't resist throwing a pic in here because it looks quite impressive :D


Wow that is a lot of drivers  8)

dpetey

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Re: Answers
« Reply #13 on: 5 Feb 2005, 01:18 am »
Quote from: ekovalsky

Wow that is a lot of drivers  8)


And a lot of green, too.  $27,000 for a pair.  Whew!  They sound awesome but not at that price.

dpetey

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Re: Answers
« Reply #14 on: 5 Feb 2005, 06:08 am »
Quote from: BradJudy

I can't resist throwing a pic in here because it looks quite impressive :D



Brad, you don't happen to know what midwoofer and tweeter drivers Epiphany is using for this speaker, do you?  The mid looks a lot like this to me:

http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=533

Danny Richie

New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #15 on: 5 Feb 2005, 02:29 pm »
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And a lot of green, too. $27,000 for a pair. Whew! They sound awesome but not at that price.


Considering that the speakers they compete against are in the $80,000. a pair range most people consider them a bargain.

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Brad, you don't happen to know what midwoofer and tweeter drivers Epiphany is using for this speaker, do you? The mid looks a lot like this to me:


The tweeters are a version of the Neo 3 that is not available to the public.

The woofers were designed by me over two and a half years ago, and may have had a lot to do with the development of the driver that you mentioned. They are not at all the same though, but they do share the same frame.

dpetey

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #16 on: 5 Feb 2005, 09:16 pm »
Quote from: Danny
The tweeters are a version of the Neo 3 that is not available to the public.

The woofers were designed by me over two and a half years ago, and may have had a lot to do with the development of the driver that you mentioned. They are not at all the same though, but they do share the same frame.


Danny, did you do the design for this speaker?  The reviews are stellar.  Just looking at it, it appears that the tweeters are recessed in a slot.  I assume that's done for phase-matching, but you'd think it'd negatively impact the off-axis response, wouldn't it?

Danny Richie

New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #17 on: 5 Feb 2005, 09:56 pm »
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Danny, did you do the design for this speaker?


About 90% of it.

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The reviews are stellar. Just looking at it, it appears that the tweeters are recessed in a slot. I assume that's done for phase-matching, but you'd think it'd negatively impact the off-axis response, wouldn't it?


It is a shallow wave guide. It has no adverse effects to the off axis response. In fact the off axis response measured really good to about 45 degrees each way.

ekovalsky

New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #18 on: 6 Feb 2005, 03:18 am »
Quote from: Rob Babcock
I realize this is not a GR Research topic, so I'll understand if you don't want to address it, but if you did make a vertical array of four or five sub drivers (a better option IMO just because, like a skyscraper, you can always go up but you don't always have extra square footage of floor) is it better generally to go with a large one chamber cabinet or to divide it internally into smaller subenclosures?


Agree with you 100% on "going vertical".  Multiple 2' cubes on the floor start eating up lots of space fast!

I think the answer of your question depends on the driver used.  The volume each driver sees should be appropriate for the type of alignment used.  Depending on the T/S specs a particular driver may only need 1 ft3, allowing multiple separate enclosures within a single larger cabinet, or it may need all the space for itself.  

Multiple 12" drivers each in a sealed box with Qtc of .7 can be equalized flat to 20hz, and four drivers will add 6dB of available SPL compared to one.  This type of design can be good to 100-200hz.  On the other hand, you can build a real foundation cracker with a single 18" driver in a huge ported box covering only the bottom octave.  Depends on what you want.

Rob Babcock

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New Versions of Alpha LS?
« Reply #19 on: 6 Feb 2005, 04:30 am »
I like the tighter bass, Qtc of .7 or lower- I'd probably aim for .55-.06, even.  I realize there's a bazillion options, too.  It seems to me sealed would be best, for me anyway.  Two tower X 4 drivers would be huge no matter what you did; think how huge they'd have to be if they were ported! :o  :lol:   The extra sensitivity wouldn't be a big issue anyway if you have a total of 8 drivers.

A pair of bass towers based on 4 X Shiva's or 4 X Tempests would certainly rock in a sealed type array.  I don't know for sure whether one large sealed box would be best or if it's better to break the inside up into several individual chambers.  The latter would allow you to fatten things up by slightly varying the volume & fill in each chamber.

Either driver choice should allow house shaking volume down to infrasonic levels, given enough amp power and a tad of parametric EQ.  I have a pair of Hsu Research TN-1220's smoothed out with a Behringer DSP-1124 right now, and I'm very happy with them.  This wouldn't be a project I'd take on anytime soon, but I do think something like this would be the ultimate no-holds-barred bass you could get, short of a gigantic infinite baffle jobbie.  If my dream ever comes to fruition I'll probably have someone expert in woodworking build the cabs- mine wouldn't likely be "furniture grade." :oops:

Sorry, Danny! :oops:   You can have your forum back now! :lol: