[Paul McNeil]

I’ve moved my beloved Maggies, 3.6 and 1.7, from the USA to Poland, without damage!

Here I have a really great audio space, an old German school room, plus 4 subwoofers (two SVS PC13 and two NHT Xds, all sealed mode). The 3.6s, my front left and rights, are 1m from the front wall, 2m from side walls and 2m from the listening positions in a 7m x 15m x 3.5 room.

The 3.6s are powered and crossed over by Crown XLS 2500s. The preamp/processor is a Marantz AVR 8805 and I use it to for Audyssey XT32equalization. I cross the 3.6s over to the subs at 80hz.

One thing I’ve noticed is that without the Audyessy correction for bass (which I can shut off remotely via the Marantz pre/pro, forcing operation in the ‘pure’ mode; which EXCLUDES participation of of the subwoofers), is that sound from the 3.6s is muddy, muddy, muddy. In a word, the sound Is horrible.

With the subwoofers engaged, and with Audyessy correction, the sound is to die for.

Why does Magnepan still not suggest the use of a subwoofer and equalization!?

[I.Greyhound Fan]

You may need better amplification and a better preamp for the 3.6's and 1.7's.  They will let you know when your electronics are not up to snuff.  They should not sound muddy.   Or maybe it is room placement.

I also recommend  running your Maggies full range and fill in the bottom end with the subs but don't over do it with the subs.  Maggie bass is hard to match.  I run my 1.6 Maggies full range with dual small Martin Logan sealed subs crossed over at 45hz.

I would try crossing over the bass at 40-60hz and keep the speakers and subs out of the corners of the room to see if this improves things when not using room correction.

[Paul McNeil]

OK, and maybe I should get better cables too. Mine are generic.

The Crown amps, which do 2000 real watts at 4ohm, or more at 2ohm are the real deal, even if far less expensive than the non-pro stuff. I know, because I replaced Krell with Crown and will never go back. Replace the Marantz pre/pro? For what?

I've heard great bass, before this system. Previously, I had infinite baffle (4 X18). My present system equals this. No Maggie ever did, they are dipoles, wherever you place them relative to one seating space.

And without equalization, room modes predominate, even for Maggies.

[AvsFan]

You may need better amplification and a better preamp for the 3.6's and 1.7's.  They will let you know when your electronics are not up to snuff.  They should not sound muddy.   Or maybe it is room placement.

I also recommend  running your Maggies full range and fill in the bottom end with the subs but don't over do it with the subs.  Maggie bass is hard to match.  I run my 1.6 Maggies full range with dual small Martin Logan sealed subs crossed over at 45hz.

I would try crossing over the bass at 40-60hz and keep the speakers and subs out of the corners of the room to see if this improves things when not using room correction.

Maggie's show imperfections in your system for sure. But you suggest running the LRS's in full range? I have them hooked up to my home theater right now and they are being powered off of my Pioneer Elite AVR. Currently I hve them set to small and crossed over at 80hz. Should I change that to full range? I just don't want to damage them with some movie soundtracks. I guess the crossover on the LRS will stop that from happening right?

[AvsFan]

OK, and maybe I should get better cables too. Mine are generic.

The Crown amps, which do 2000 real watts at 4ohm, or more at 2ohm are the real deal, even if far less expensive than the non-pro stuff. I know, because I replaced Krell with Crown and will never go back. Replace the Marantz pre/pro? For what?

I've heard great bass, before this system. Previously, I had infinite baffle (4 X18). My present system equals this. No Maggie ever did, they are dipoles, wherever you place them relative to one seating space.

And without equalization, room modes predominate, even for Maggies.

Better cables? As in RCA cables, speaker cables? What are we talking about? And I am not going to start a cable debate, but DON'T waste your money on super expensive cables. Complete and utter waste of money. Cables DO matter but all you need is hogh quality well made cables and that doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of money for that. Blue Jean Cables. That's all I am going to say on that matter. SPECTACULAR cables at super affordable prices.

I might have missed something, but are you running your Maggie's in a theater system? With that Marantz, you'd better be! LOL 

And the 8805 is a BEAST of a pre/processor, so there should be NO reason in the world that you need to upgrade that.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Maggie's show imperfections in your system for sure. But you suggest running the LRS's in full range? I have them hooked up to my home theater right now and they are being powered off of my Pioneer Elite AVR. Currently I have them set to small and crossed over at 80hz. Should I change that to full range? I just don't want to damage them with some movie soundtracks. I guess the crossover on the LRS will stop that from happening right?

You  won't ruin the Maggies running them full range.  Some of the Classical music that I occasionally listen to put out deeper bass with great slam.  Just trust your ears.  Running them crossed over at 80hz will give you more room pressurization from the subs.  It is a matter of preference.  For music, I prefer to run them full range.  But the smaller LRS may sound much better crossed over at a higher point for sure, especially for HT use.  It all depends on how well your subs integrate with them.

By the way, I was not ragging on that Marantz AVR.  It is a great piece  but its preamp is not a $3-4K preamp.  You would be surprised at what a great dedicated 2ch  preamp can do for your system.  I went from a $2K AVA hybrid preamp to a $6K Pass pre to a $10K (bought used) BAT preamp and the improvement at each jump was very noticeable and worth the money.

[AvsFan]

You  won't ruin the Maggies running them full range.  Some of the Classical music that I occasionally listen to put out deeper bass with great slam.  Just trust your ears.  Running them crossed over at 80hz will give you more room pressurization from the subs.  It is a matter of preference.  For music, I prefer to run them full range.  But the smaller LRS may sound much better crossed over at a higher point for sure, especially for HT use.  It all depends on how well your subs integrate with them.

By the way, I was not ragging on that Marantz AVR.  It is a great piece  but its preamp is not a $3-4K preamp.  You would be surprised at what a great dedicated 2ch  preamp can do for your system.  I went from a $2K AVA hybrid preamp to a $6K Pass pre to a $10K (bought used) BAT preamp and the improvement at each jump was very noticeable and worth the money.

Yeah, in 5 minutes when I am done working for the day, I might play around with the settings some. And I know you weren't ragging on it. I am with you on a good, dedicated two channel pre-amp being better than an avr, they are. But I am not going to put both a two channel pre amp and a home theater processor in the same room. Did that for a bit and hated it. I am looking into am inexpensive balanced pre-amp to use in this two channel room though. Does Frank do Fully balanced pre-amps?
I am looking at the SS Schiit Freya. It's only $599.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Frank does not make a balanced preamp but he does make a HT bypass switch for them.

From what I have read, the new Schiit Freya Plus preamp sounds great for the money.  I would be curious to know how it sounds compared to Franks Transcendence RB 10. 

[thunderbrick]

Years ago I borrowed a pair of Sound Lab 'stats, and couldn't return them fast enough.  Muddy, muddy, muddy, which I later learned was a standing wave.  Atrocious.  My 1.6s and later the 20.1 sound amazing in the same location.  Go figure.

[Paul McNeil]

Years ago I borrowed a pair of Sound Lab 'stats, and couldn't return them fast enough.  Muddy, muddy, muddy, which I later learned was a standing wave.  Atrocious.  My 1.6s and later the 20.1 sound amazing in the same location.  Go figure.

Yeah, I think it really depends on the room, the panel and the panel's placement, avoiding those dreaded waves. I'm constrained in placement of my Maggies by a sound transparent screen. And it's not only my ears that complain about the sub 80hz bass from them, so does the Marantz/Audyssey microphone measurement!

It's just a lot easier, if you've got good subs, to get great bass by crossing over the Maggies at say 80hz. I doubt though whether in their best placement in my room the Maggies could equal the subs, and I'm talking about reproducing acoustic bass at moderate levels that is articulate and well-defined.

As for running the Maggies full range for movie playback, I think it's a bad idea. I've tried it and during intense low frequency episodes, my 3.6s begin to rattle....

[I.Greyhound Fan]

If your 3.6's are getting bass rattling then you may be getting some delamination and you may need to send them back to Magnepan for repair or they can send you the glue to fix them yourself.  They should not rattle with deep bass.  I used my 1.6's and MMG's for HT for a while without any rattle. 

[Paul McNeil]

If your 3.6's are getting bass rattling then you may be getting some delamination and you may need to send them back to Magnepan for repair or they can send you the glue to fix them yourself.  They should not rattle with deep bass.  I used my 1.6's and MMG's for HT for a while without any rattle.

Yeah, I worried this might be the case but can't see or feel any such problems. Do I have to remove the 'socks' to know for sure?

What happens when Maggies 'bottom out', i.e. when with an amp feeds them up to 2000W at 30Hz, which of course they are incapable of converting into an appropriate level of sound? If delimitation is not a problem to they use give up 'quietly'?

[josh358]

I’ve moved my beloved Maggies, 3.6 and 1.7, from the USA to Poland, without damage!

Here I have a really great audio space, an old German school room, plus 4 subwoofers (two SVS PC13 and two NHT Xds, all sealed mode). The 3.6s, my front left and rights, are 1m from the front wall, 2m from side walls and 2m from the listening positions in a 7m x 15m x 3.5 room.

The 3.6s are powered and crossed over by Crown XLS 2500s. The preamp/processor is a Marantz AVR 8805 and I use it to for Audyssey XT32equalization. I cross the 3.6s over to the subs at 80hz.

One thing I’ve noticed is that without the Audyessy correction for bass (which I can shut off remotely via the Marantz pre/pro, forcing operation in the ‘pure’ mode; which EXCLUDES participation of of the subwoofers), is that sound from the 3.6s is muddy, muddy, muddy. In a word, the sound Is horrible.

With the subwoofers engaged, and with Audyessy correction, the sound is to die for.

Why does Magnepan still not suggest the use of a subwoofer and equalization!?

Wendell Diller just made a post about Maggies and subwoofers. He recommend dipole subwoofers, since they blend well with Maggies. Otherwise, I don't think he's mentioned them, because he feels that planar bass alone is more realistic and that's it's hard to get them to blend. But I think this depends on the type of music you listen to, on acoustical music, planar bass is without peer but for rock a sealed sub will give you a lot more slam and electric bass was designed to be played through a speaker.

Anyway, I think that just about everyone puts a sub on all but the largest Maggies.

I think too that any woofer benefits heavily from equalization. Room modes typically mean that bass can swing +/- dB and this has little to do with the speaker, in fact, dipole woofers like the Maggie's are less susceptible to it because they don't much excite the lateral room modes (because of the dipole null). Magnepan doesn't make a recommendation in this regard but Jim Winey, the founder of Magnepan, told me that he'd tried Audyssey with Maggies and that it worked great (on up to five channels -- beyond that, not so much -- so I guess anyone who has 16 Maggies in their room is out of luck).

[josh358]

Yeah, I worried this might be the case but can't see or feel any such problems. Do I have to remove the 'socks' to know for sure?

What happens when Maggies 'bottom out', i.e. when with an amp feeds them up to 2000W at 30Hz, which of course they are incapable of converting into an appropriate level of sound? If delimitation is not a problem to they use give up 'quietly'?

When driven too hard, they just hit the magnets and slap. This will lead you to turn them down, so there's no damage to the woofer. If you did put an absurd amount of current through them they'd no doubt suffer thermal damage, since they aren't fused. But they have a large surface area so ordinarily the midrange and tweeter fuses would blow long before the woofers were damaged.

Delamination occurs in older models but not in current or recent ones, since they changed the adhesive.

[Tyson]

I've said it before but it bears repeating - to get the best integration with an OB speaker, it's best to use OB subs.  I recommend checking out the OB subs that GR Research offers here on Audiocircle.  My speakers have planar magnetic drivers (Neo3 for the tweeter, a cluster of Neo10s for the midrange).  Having OB subs really is optimal for these type of speakers

Another factor that makes planars particularly difficult to match a sub with is that the planar elements tend to start and STOP very quickly/precisely, which makes it very difficult for a cone driver to keep up.  This is why so many subs sound slow and bloated when compared to the main speaker. 

What the GR Research subs do is add servo control the the system so that the drivers not only start moving quickly, but also STOP moving very quickly.  This gives them a MUCH better match to the blazing-fast sound of the planar elements. 

[josh358]

I've heard nothing but good things about the GR open baffle woofers.

[Tyson]

Interestingly enough, Danny just put out a video today where he talks about "fast bass" and what exactly that means and how it's achieved, I thought it was really informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3QQPO7y04&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0l-d3khjgqwYZga1hF0QfLQ_e5-ImYM0bjOSxiRUYNcRDEAU45-eQtSqA

[Wind Chaser]

What the GR Research subs do is add servo control ... so that the drivers not only start moving quickly, but also STOP moving very quickly.

The amplifier’s job is to control the speaker. It’s ability to do so is also known as damping factor. SS amps typically measure better than tube amps, especially SET’s which are atrocious in this regard.

[Tyson]

The amplifier’s job is to control the speaker. It’s ability to do so is also known as damping factor. SS amps typically measure better than tube amps, especially SET’s which are atrocious in this regard.

Which is why it's best to run SETs only into an easy load and use SS amps on the bass.  But that's not what I'm talking about.  My main point is 2 fold - first, the OB subs sound better with OB speakers because the room interaction remains consistent and second that the GR Research OB subs are even better than that because they have an extra level of control/precision due to the servo mechanism, which makes them a better match with super-clean speakers like the maggies or other planars (and electrostatics). 

Don't get me wrong, there are very good sealed subwoofers that are very well executed and sound very good.  But the servo OB subs are some next level shit, at least for music.  And I think even Clayton at Spatial audio agrees with me, since he uses this same subwoofer setup on his top of the line $20k speaker system.  You might ask "well, is it really that good?".  Yes, it's really that good.

[AvsFan]

Interestingly enough, Danny just put out a video today where he talks about "fast bass" and what exactly that means and how it's achieved, I thought it was really informative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3QQPO7y04&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0l-d3khjgqwYZga1hF0QfLQ_e5-ImYM0bjOSxiRUYNcRDEAU45-eQtSqA

That was a great video to share! Thanks!