How about NO toe in!

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Manolo

How about NO toe in!
« on: 17 Jul 2019, 09:21 pm »
Thruout the years of listening to Vandersteen 2c’s, Reference 3a monitors, Quad 988’s and now Spatial M4 TM’s and trying out some degree of toe in, I always come back to no toe in at all. Only a nominal difference
in distance from the front wall -in the order of 1/8”- to the interior side of the loudspeakers. It sounds more natural to me and soundstage and depth are enhanced, much better than with any toe in. I listen in a smalish room, 12’x11’ in a near field setting. Try it.

HanaEyes

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Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #1 on: 18 Jul 2019, 02:16 am »
Tried that and yes you do get a wide soundstage at the expense of focus and slightly fuzzier leading edges, but it does have a nice effect overall :) I have a room slightly smaller than yours so I'm listening relatively near field too, but after months of experimenting with the distance from the walls and toeing in and out, I like it best when it's completely toed in facing me.

Wind Chaser

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #2 on: 18 Jul 2019, 03:42 am »
...after months of experimenting with the distance from the walls and toeing in and out, I like it best when it's completely toed in facing me.

+ 1  :thumb:

sumoking

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Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #3 on: 18 Jul 2019, 04:06 am »

aniwolfe

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Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #4 on: 18 Jul 2019, 03:19 pm »
I use very little toe in with my M3TM's. Center image is locked in very nicely. I sit about 9 ft away and speakers are 8ft apart.  31-32 inches from the Front Wall. It sounds very S   P   A   T   I  A  L  :D

Early B.

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #5 on: 18 Jul 2019, 03:31 pm »
For those of you who prefer heavy toe-in, what's your room size? How far are your speakers from the side walls? 

Wind Chaser

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jul 2019, 06:20 pm »
Most speakers measure better on axis than off, so that's one consideration. The other is localization and focus of image specificity, it is almost always much tighter on axis, whereas off axis sounds diffused and less specific.

As for my oddly shaped room with seven walls, the speakers are positioned on axis (both horizontal and vertical) almost 4' off the front walls. One speaker is 3' away from the side wall while the other is more than 5' away. There is 12' between the speakers and the listening position is a little more than 8' back. This arrangement from the listening position forms a 90° angle to each speaker. So yes, the speakers are very far apart and the listening position is relatively close but result is spectacular!  :D :D

Vedder323

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Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #7 on: 18 Jul 2019, 06:44 pm »
I almost always prefer no toe-in.

Early B.

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jul 2019, 07:35 pm »
As for my oddly shaped room with seven walls, the speakers are positioned on axis (both horizontal and vertical) almost 4' off the front walls. One speaker is 3' away from the side wall while the other is more than 5' away. There is 12' between the speakers and the listening position is a little more than 8' back. This arrangement from the listening position forms a 90° angle to each speaker. So yes, the speakers are very far apart and the listening position is relatively close but result is spectacular!  :D :D

Based on your oddly shaped room, I can definitely see why you prefer lots of toe-in. My assumption is that small and/or odd shaped rooms or rooms with wide openings on one side will more likely require toe-in compared to medium or large rectangular rooms. I have a typical medium sized, rectangular room and 100% of the speakers I've owned sounded better firing straight ahead.   

mcgsxr

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jul 2019, 07:51 pm »
I don't own any Spatials, but have owned different speakers over the years.

Most if not all of my OB speakers (DIY, MMG's, 1.6QR Maggies) sounded better with toe in.

Most if not all of the standmount speakers have sounded better with limited or no toe in.

Same room.  Same idiot listener!

Wind Chaser

Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #10 on: 19 Jul 2019, 12:41 am »
I almost always prefer no toe-in.

I've done it with a few speakers I found too hot on the top end. When speakers are measured on axis and off axis, the flattest response is usually found to be on axis. Given that it would seem most crossovers are designed around 0°.

HanaEyes

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Re: How about NO toe in!
« Reply #11 on: 20 Jul 2019, 03:55 am »
For those of you who prefer heavy toe-in, what's your room size? How far are your speakers from the side walls?

My room dimension is about 10' x 11'5", speakers are about 1'3" from the side walls and about 3' from the front wall.

Edit: I've only required full toe in with the spatials. With the other bookshelves / floorstanders I had in the past, most of the time toe in is marginal, like 1" or so.

The M4TM's room response measured with REW:


Not sure what's causing the dip around the 1.5-2.5khz range - adjusting speaker position / listening position / toe in position all don't seem to help :/ this was measured in stereo; I have since added a rel t7 to assist in the bass below 50hz but haven't had a chance to measure again as I have returned the mic.