[Gumby]

What’s the advantage to adding more power if the current system seems fine.  I’m using  Bryston B60 with small B&W 707 standmounts.   They seem like a good match to my ears and my room. Most times I listen in the 75 to 90 dB range.  The amp or speakers never struggle or sound strained. 

But I’ve read having more power than you need, if played at the same levels, gives a wider and deeper stage, and more meat to the music. 

Do you experience this?

[john1970]

I find that more power can give better and more solid bass reproduction, but that is about all I notice. 

It really depends on the impedance and electrical phase angle as a function of frequency as well as the overall efficiency of your speaker.   If your speakers are 8 ohms with benign phase angles and 95 dB/1w/1m efficiency you won't need a lot of power to generate a lot of sound. 

[R. Daneel]

I find that more power can give better and more solid bass reproduction, but that is about all I notice. 

It really depends on the impedance and electrical phase angle as a function of frequency as well as the overall efficiency of your speaker.   If your  are 8 ohms with benign phase angles and 95 dB/1w/1m efficiency you won't need a lot of power to generate a lot of sound.

Indeed!

Unless the amplifier is seriously underpowered, a more controlled low-end and perhaps, but just perhaps, slightly improved transient response of the speaker.

The biggest thing you're getting is the higher electricity bill.

With your speakers, an improvement would be marginal at best. There is also a strong possibility you'd be losing some of the things along the way. Higher-powered amplifiers tend to have a higher noise-floor at low volume operation.

Forget about this and concentrate on your front-end!

Cheers,
Antun

[Elizabeth]

IMO it is more about the quality of the amplifier power than just sheer watts.
You could buy a Behringer for under $500 with 3000 watts.. (yes 3000 at 4 ohms)
Or spend twenty times that for a Pass 60 watt amplifier.
Which one do you think 'sounds better'?
There are some things that have subtle improvements with more power, Attack, the instant rise time so percussive notes have the sharp attack..
As mentioned, if your not experiencing any lack of steam with the current amp.. YOU could find other ways to improve your system.

[gberger]

elizabeth,

IMO, simply stated, more reserve power can provide better response to transients.  If you're at a comfortable listening level, using a mere fraction of the amplifier's rated power, then an abrupt transient shouldn't cause clipping.  (beginnings of the Berlioz Te Deu and the Verdi Requiem, or fourth movement of Saint Siens Organ Symphony - -  recording with a wide dynamic range)

[JLM]

More power can provide:

1.) Insurance against clipping the amp (and burning out driver voice coils)

2.) More dynamic range (music can have 10 - 30 dB peaks)

3.) A better (commanding) grip on the drivers (for improved resolution)

Live music can reach instantaneous peaks of 110 dB.  Realize that the relationship between watts (power) and dB (what we hear) is logarithmic, so it takes 10 times the power to sound twice as loud.  That is 20-30 dB higher than what what is stated that you're listening to on average (music is all about peaks).  Those 20-30 dB peaks equate to 100-1,000 times the power needed at 80-90 dB than your stated listening levels.

OTOH every amp has their sweet spot, where they sound their best.  For tube amps it's at low output, for solid state it's at high output.  And tube amp clip more gracefully (less distortion, less damaging to driver voice coils) compared to solid state that clip sharply (in a much more distorting fashion, and much more damaging to voice coils). 

I've compared barely adequately powered speakers versus the same speakers given their recommended power.  It turned them from polite dinner guests (like your seemed 'fine' description) into NFL linebackers in tuxedos.  Small speakers tend to be particularly inefficient and need more power.

[Gumby]

The following is my understanding of speakers and power:

Every doubling of power gives 3 dB of added loudness.

If a pair of speakers are 84 dB efficient at 1 watt, and if the maximum I like to listen to music is 90 dB,  then 4 Watts should be enough power?....1 watt gives the 84 dB of the speaker, 2 watts gives 87 dB , 4 watts gives 90 dB.   

If however, as JLM states, I want to experience those peaks of say 110 dB , then to go from 90 dB to 110 dB means a difference of 20 dB.

If 4 watts gives 90 dB, then it goes....8 watts gives 93 dB,   16 watts 96 dB,  32 watts 99 dB,   64 watts 103 dB,  128 watts 106 dB,  256 watts gives 109 dB. 

Therefore, with my speakers, I need about 256 watts of power to experience those peaks properly?   

But then I also need to consider if the speakers can handle 110 dB peaks and 256 watt peaks. 

Am I anywhere in the ballpark with this thinking, or totally gone? 

[Freo-1]

Speakers generally get damaged when the amp is underpowered.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about the amp having too much power. 


Here's a real world example regarding power:  Owners of Devialet will tell you that increased power trumps the latest amp updates.  For example, a D400 will easily outperform a D220, even though the amp section was improved with the Expert Pro series. 


The take away is:  Always go for the most power you can afford within a high quality amp brand.  This would not apply to low wattage/SET supporters.

[JLM]

The following is my understanding of speakers and power:

Every doubling of power gives 3 dB of added loudness.

If a pair of speakers are 84 dB efficient at 1 watt, and if the maximum I like to listen to music is 90 dB,  then 4 Watts should be enough power?....1 watt gives the 84 dB of the speaker, 2 watts gives 87 dB , 4 watts gives 90 dB.   

If however, as JLM states, I want to experience those peaks of say 110 dB , then to go from 90 dB to 110 dB means a difference of 20 dB.

If 4 watts gives 90 dB, then it goes....8 watts gives 93 dB,   16 watts 96 dB,  32 watts 99 dB,   64 watts 103 dB,  128 watts 106 dB,  256 watts gives 109 dB. 

Therefore, with my speakers, I need about 256 watts of power to experience those peaks properly?   

But then I also need to consider if the speakers can handle 110 dB peaks and 256 watt peaks. 

Am I anywhere in the ballpark with this thinking, or totally gone?

You're in the ballpark.  Most inefficient speakers can't handle live music levels in-room (we haven't mentioned increased distances past the standard 1 meter).  Speaker efficiency can make more difference than amp size because of this logarithmic power/dB relationship.  OTOH speakers with extremely high efficiency reveal system noises and nearly always have colored presentations.  So IMO the ideal speaker efficiency is 90 - 95 dB/w/m based on 8 ohm resistance (real, not typical manufacturer inflated figures) that would require roughly 35 - 200 wpc in-room to reproduce live music peaks safely.  Note that efficient speakers also provide a more dynamic (beyond 'fine') presentation.

[witchdoctor]

I would reframe the question, "Why do you need more power?"
One of the reasons is passive cross overs are horribly inefficient compared to active crossovers. Stop the madness.
Get active speakers and let the designer match the drivers, the crossover and the amp. Problem solved and in the long run you save $$$ on amps and speaker cables.

[Letitroll98]

Your speakers are 84db efficient, not to put too fine a point on it, add more power.  A lot more.  And your calculations are all based on a one meter distance that doesn't reflect real world sound levels in real rooms.  See if you can beg, borrow, or steal a 400 wpc stereo amp for a day or two, you'll never go back to underpowered amps again.

[Gumby]

I’d love to borrow a 7B or 14B and hear what that does

[JLM]

I would reframe the question, "Why do you need more power?"
One of the reasons is passive cross overs are horribly inefficient compared to active crossovers. Stop the madness.
Get active speakers and let the designer match the drivers, the crossover and the amp. Problem solved and in the long run you save $$$ on amps and speaker cables.

+1

[Freo-1]

Your speakers are 84db efficient, not to put too fine a point on it, add more power.  A lot more.  And your calculations are all based on a one meter distance that doesn't reflect real world sound levels in real rooms.  See if you can beg, borrow, or steal a 400 wpc stereo amp for a day or two, you'll never go back to underpowered amps again.

Agree with this assessment. 

[Freo-1]

I would reframe the question, "Why do you need more power?"
One of the reasons is passive cross overs are horribly inefficient compared to active crossovers. Stop the madness.

Get active speakers and let the designer match the drivers, the crossover and the amp. Problem solved and in the long run you save $$$ on amps and speaker cables.

Active speakers do have potential advantages, but this is overstating the benefits.  I've heard plenty of traditional systems that sound better than active speaker setups.

[Early B.]

A basic 4-cylinder car engine will get you where you want to go. These engines are typically put in low end cars. An 8-cylinder engine will also get you where you want to go, but faster, and with more power and torque. It's a more enjoyable ride. This 8 cyl. engine will likely come in a higher trim level which means it will have more amenities and higher quality parts compared to a car with a basic 4-cylinder engine.

Same is true for high end audio. Most amp manufacturers reserve their best amps for the highest power output and fill it with the best parts. Often, you're not just getting a higher powered amp, you're getting a better built and ultimately, a better sounding one.   

[R. Daneel]

Hey Gumby, you're right on the mathematics. However, there is no chance in hell your B+W will produce a 110dB SPL without destruction. In fact, a bass-reflex system will cause compression and distortion at 100dB. Your expectations are much too optimistic I'm afraid.

There is a strong chance you will not find what you are looking for on this forum. I suggest you visit the Troels Gravesen website. There you will find much information on speaker behavior and design, what works for certain scenarios, what works for other scenarios.

[R. Daneel]

A basic 4-cylinder car engine will get you where you want to go. These engines are typically put in low end cars. An 8-cylinder engine will also get you where you want to go, but faster, and with more power and torque. It's a more enjoyable ride. This 8 cyl. engine will likely come in a higher trim level which means it will have more amenities and higher quality parts compared to a car with a basic 4-cylinder engine.

Same is true for high end . Most amp manufacturers reserve their best amps for the highest power output and fill it with the best parts. Often, you're not just getting a higher powered amp, you're getting a better built and ultimately, a better sounding one.   

In the old days of audio, people would estimate the quality of an audio component solely on the basis of how much it weighed. You seem to follow the same logic. However, if that was actually true, a Buick would be better than a Ferrari.

[Gumby]

Hey Gumby, you're right on the mathematics. However, there is no chance in hell your B+W will produce a 110dB SPL without destruction.

If the math is correct, and 90 dB is the maximum I ever listen to music, then the B60 does have more than enough good power for 84 dB efficiency speakers. 

As you said, focus on improving my Sources.   

[Gumby]

However, there is no chance in hell your B+W will produce a 110dB SPL without destruction. In fact, a bass-reflex system will cause compression and distortion at 100dB.

It would be fun trying.   

Is this why the driver surrounds of woofers on Pro Speakers are different than home audio?   I notice they have a tight accordion-like surround.  I’ve been reading about the Klipsch Heritage line of speakers and notice this feature on their bass drivers as well.

Example, look at the picture of the woofer on the Klipsch Cornwall. It looks like it can take a beating.  The specs state a max SPL of 119 dB Continous.