Audio Myths Thread

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Steve

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #80 on: 14 Jun 2019, 04:24 am »
Most room can't even support a single piano at full bore!  Then there's the idea that you can fully replicate the acoustic wave of said orchestra coming out of a couple of relatively tiny apertures.  Such a wave is so distorted that it's actually a miracle that it's recognizable. 


And yet the music is not only easily recognizable on a system, but on a truly excellent system the instruments sound uncanny accurate to the real thing, such as piano, violin, banjo, french horn, clarinet etc. It can be done.

cheers
steve

FireGuy

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #81 on: 14 Jun 2019, 11:36 am »
And yet the music is not only easily recognizable on a system, but on a truly excellent system the instruments sound uncanny accurate to the real thing, such as piano, violin, banjo, french horn, clarinet etc. It can be done.

cheers
steve

Yes, IMO on a good system you may get close and recognizable but it can't be done.  The hifi "system" is not a piano, not a banjo, not a french horn etc. in your room.  So that basic logic says it can't be done.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #82 on: 14 Jun 2019, 02:42 pm »
And here goes another myth.... The idea that you can fit the acoustic output of a 60 person plus orchestra into a typical residential room at full tilt is inane.  Most room can't even support a single piano at full bore!  Then there's the idea that you can fully replicate the acoustic wave of said orchestra coming out of a couple of relatively tiny apertures.  Such a wave is so distorted that it's actually a miracle that it's recognizable. 

And yes, with a 100 dB sensitivity speaker, 35 watts would work just fine in most rooms.



I understand your point regarding the orchestra playback, but I can state that my current setup can get fairly close once I got a pair of Devialet amps in mono.   The large German floor-standing speakers are pretty flat from 20-20Khz, and are in the low 90's regarding sensitivity.  While they sound just fine with a moderately powered tube am setup, they really come alive with 500 watts available from the amps.  The differences are readily noticeable when large crescendos and dynamic contrasts are present in the recording. 


Finding a 100db sensitive speaker that is flat down to 20 Hz is a very rare and likely expensive endeavor.  There are sound engineering reasons why most large multi driver speakers that are fairly flat with deep bass extension are nominal 4 ohms, and tend not to be as sensitive.


 

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #83 on: 14 Jun 2019, 02:49 pm »
Yes, IMO on a good system you may get close and recognizable but it can't be done.  The hifi "system" is not a piano, not a banjo, not a french horn etc. in your room.  So that basic logic says it can't be done.



FWIW, I remember reading about demonstrations Paul Klipsch used to give back in the 50's regarding live vs. playback of recordings.  He would use the Klipschorns against a live performance, and was able to achieve a result where the audience was not able to easily tell the difference.

dB Cooper

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #84 on: 14 Jun 2019, 03:18 pm »
AR used to do the same thing, demonstrating how their system provided playback (on a mid fifties tape system lacking even NR) 'indistinguishable' from the live sound. Of course, the players had to back off on their dynamic contrasts, but OK... So I guess storage/amplification technology was as good as it could get already and speaker technology didn't need to move past the AR-3a?

A couple years ago, AudioNote UK had a cello player with them who did a live vs recorded demo using the same cello as was used on the recording. Although the system gave a good account of itself, you could tell the difference, as you would have been able to do with any system there including the ridiculous million-dollar system that (to my ears) was easily bettered for musicality by many systems there at five cents on the dollar. The cellist also played a 'soft' piece as was done in the AR demos.

Bottom line, 'good' is here, reality is not, cost be damned.


BobRex

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #85 on: 14 Jun 2019, 03:40 pm »
In the AR tests, they put the speakers on stage in an auditorium.  Hardly a domestic situation.  What room did the Klipsch test use?  Brian Cheney did similar tests, but again, look at the room size.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #86 on: 14 Jun 2019, 03:59 pm »
AR used to do the same thing, demonstrating how their system provided playback (on a mid fifties tape system lacking even NR) 'indistinguishable' from the live sound.

...and Edison did the same in 1918:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #87 on: 14 Jun 2019, 04:27 pm »
...and Edison did the same in 1918:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-live-versus-recorded-listening.html



Interesting read.  Thanks for posting the link. 

audioengr

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #88 on: 14 Jun 2019, 04:49 pm »
In the AR tests, they put the speakers on stage in an auditorium.  Hardly a domestic situation.  What room did the Klipsch test use?  Brian Cheney did similar tests, but again, look at the room size.

Kind of like trying to tell an Elvis impressionist from the real thing at 50 yards.  We listen to music in small venues up-close and low-level.

Steve

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #89 on: 14 Jun 2019, 10:21 pm »
Yes, IMO on a good system you may get close and recognizable but it can't be done.  The hifi "system" is not a piano, not a banjo, not a french horn etc. in your room.  So that basic logic says it can't be done.

I would have to disagree with your logic. Freo mentions one example, and I was present at another. I was attending "The Show" in Las Vegas some years ago, and was invited by Misty River Band to a Von Scheikert experiment. Misty River Band played live and was recorded at that time. The recorded music was then played back by Von Scheikert's system and was extremely accurate, as is my own home/lab system.

The problem still remains in that nearly all components are not accurate, even though the published specs seem excellent. But specs can be deceiving. As one simple example, +/- 0,1db from 20-20khz means that the signal amplitude deviation, the frequency response can deviate in the -54db range, which is easily perceived, and thus quite poor. That is just one reason why so many components have similar/same specs and yet sound different. Nothing magical about that, just science.

cheers
steve



« Last Edit: 15 Jun 2019, 01:55 am by Steve »

BobRex

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #90 on: 15 Jun 2019, 01:16 am »
Kind of like trying to tell an Elvis impressionist from the real thing at 50 yards.  We listen to music in small venues up-close and low-level.

Exactly my original point.  Therefore you don't need 600 watts to attempt to get "realistic concert levels" of a Mahler symphony in a domestic setting.  The majority of domestic rooms cannot support the energy of a full tilt orchestra.  Therefore you miniaturize the scale and level.  My original statement holds.

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #91 on: 15 Jun 2019, 03:01 am »
Exactly my original point.  Therefore you don't need 600 watts to attempt to get "realistic concert levels" of a Mahler symphony in a domestic setting.  The majority of domestic rooms cannot support the energy of a full tilt orchestra.  Therefore you miniaturize the scale and level.  My original statement holds.



Have to respectfully disagree (to a point).  When reproducing dynamic peaks that can be as high as 24 db, there is NO WAY a 35 watt amp is going to reproduce a major symphonic piece accurately with the vast majority of speakers available.  Tube amps will provide a "gentle clip" when this occurs, so it is not all that offensive to the listener, but one will hear the compression/limitation.  OTOH,  SS amps clip hard, so one needs more power and headroom to avoid this. When I listen to large scale symphonic music, I don't listen to them at a low level.  I listen to them at a moderate level that is close to the level I would hear at a live hall (such as the Vets in Providence, RI).   That "requires" a setup that has a full frequency response and enough power to reproduce accurately.  In my case, speakers that are 20-20 KHz, low 90's sensitivity, and 500 watts per channel at 6 ohms.


Here is a link that provides some background:


https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/audio/we_need_more_power_captain_but_how_just_how_much_amplifier_power_is_needed/



rollo

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #92 on: 15 Jun 2019, 03:01 pm »
  Go to Carnegie Hall and listen to a full Orchestra then go home and listen to same piece of music. Then you tell me. Sorry but no Cigar.


charles

rollo

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Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #93 on: 15 Jun 2019, 03:03 pm »
   I have one to chew on. Measurements alone are not responsible for good reproduced sound. Part selection has an affect on sound.  :popcorn:


charles

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #94 on: 15 Jun 2019, 04:20 pm »

Let's all agree that our beloved hobby will never get to the point that a home domestic playback system will  be able to sound exactly the same as a live concert hall.  Now, having said that, one can get pretty close if the room size is adequate, sufficient power is provided to the speakers, and the speakers can reproduce the full frequency spectrum.


Digital Signal Processing (DSP) has changed the game significantly regarding the ability to reproduce recordings.  The Devialet Expert/Expert Pro employ extensive DSP and SHARC technology, which allows for the units to provide near unparalleled sound quality with some of the best measurements in the industry.  Until you hear one, it's hard to quantify just how much of an difference (improvement) provided by this approach to playback electronics.   This goes well above using "better parts" (but I do agree for analog amps better parts do help).

SET Man

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #95 on: 15 Jun 2019, 05:21 pm »

There is a misunderstanding.  The statement was in reference to the previous post with a single 6" driver.   If one has speakers specifically designed for a full frequency that are very efficient, then of course the full frequency spectrum can be achieved with a low powered SET amp.  Those are very rare and very expensive.


A 600W monoblock does not say much, outside of the fact it's got lots of power.  A pair of Devialet Expert Pro amps (in mono) will in all probability sound better than the vast majority of systems put together, regardless of price.  And, it Won't run out of power when playing back a Mahler Symphony at realistic concert hall levels.  (Not sure 35 watts will be able to achieve that).

Hey!

    Well, that would be me isn't it? Believe it or not my 6" Fostex in my back horn loaded in my room with room load do go down to about lower to mid 30's. No I didn't use any calibrated measuring equipment but by using Rat Shack and test CD and of course my own ears. This actually surprised many people you have heard my system. True that it is not a flat respond or down to 20hz.

  But do I feel like I'm missing out much if anything? Not really. Of all my years being into audio stuffs. I have heard so many systems, both at all those audio shows I've attended and more importantly thanks to the disbanded NYAR group many meeting back in the days, many systems in actual home setting. And that really make me realized that high wattage, big speaker, expensive system mean nothing to me if it can't reproduce the emotional of the music itself. Every system have strengths and weakness, and it is all depend what you value most when you listen to music. And my system strengths outweighed the weaknesses for me and this let me enjoy the music in an intimate way... well, at least for me.

  Anyway, I noticed that you have mentioned and praised the Devialet amp and your flat down to 20hz speaker many times in this post and another that you have started about your Devialet amp...

Let's all agree that our beloved hobby will never get to the point that a home domestic playback system will  be able to sound exactly the same as a live concert hall.  Now, having said that, one can get pretty close if the room size is adequate, sufficient power is provided to the speakers, and the speakers can reproduce the full frequency spectrum.


Digital Signal Processing (DSP) has changed the game significantly regarding the ability to reproduce recordings.  The Devialet Expert/Expert Pro employ extensive DSP and SHARC technology, which allows for the units to provide near unparalleled sound quality with some of the best measurements in the industry.  Until you hear one, it's hard to quantify just how much of an difference (improvement) provided by this approach to playback electronics.   This goes well above using "better parts" (but I do agree for analog amps better parts do help).

   Well, congratulation that you found the best high power amps with speakers that's flat down to 20hz. OK, I'm going to leave this post now and go spend time enjoying musics on obsolete vinyl LPs play on 1972 turntable and my low power SET amps that measure like crap with 6" driver speakers that can't do a flat 20-20k. Cheer! :beer:

Buddy

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #96 on: 15 Jun 2019, 07:46 pm »
Hey!

    Well, that would be me isn't it? Believe it or not my 6" Fostex in my back horn loaded in my room with room load do go down to about lower to mid 30's. No I didn't use any calibrated measuring equipment but by using Rat Shack and test CD and of course my own ears. This actually surprised many people you have heard my system. True that it is not a flat respond or down to 20hz.

  But do I feel like I'm missing out much if anything? Not really. Of all my years being into audio stuffs. I have heard so many systems, both at all those audio shows I've attended and more importantly thanks to the disbanded NYAR group many meeting back in the days, many systems in actual home setting. And that really make me realized that high wattage, big speaker, expensive system mean nothing to me if it can't reproduce the emotional of the music itself. Every system have strengths and weakness, and it is all depend what you value most when you listen to music. And my system strengths outweighed the weaknesses for me and this let me enjoy the music in an intimate way... well, at least for me.

  Anyway, I noticed that you have mentioned and praised the Devialet amp and your flat down to 20hz speaker many times in this post and another that you have started about your Devialet amp...

   Well, congratulation that you found the best high power amps with speakers that's flat down to 20hz. OK, I'm going to leave this post now and go spend time enjoying musics on obsolete vinyl LPs play on 1972 turntable and my low power SET amps that measure like crap with 6" driver speakers that can't do a flat 20-20k. Cheer! :beer:

Buddy



You are farther along than many of us in this hobby.  The fact that you truly enjoy what you have is the single most important aspect of this hobby.  Only recently have I come to appreciate this.  BTW, some of the most seductive sounding systems I've heard are low power SET amps with large horn drivers. 


Cheers! :beer:
« Last Edit: 15 Jun 2019, 10:07 pm by Freo-1 »

Freo-1

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #97 on: 15 Jun 2019, 10:18 pm »

OK, let's move on.  Found this link regarding audio myths:


http://sound.whsites.net/articles/myths.html


So have a read and let folks know what you think!

Steve

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #98 on: 16 Jun 2019, 01:53 am »
Yes, IMO on a good system you may get close and recognizable but it can't be done.  The hifi "system" is not a piano, not a banjo, not a french horn etc. in your room.  So that basic logic says it can't be done.

Forgot to mention I own and play a violin, a banjo visited my venue/home, and have a piano near by for comparison.

cheers
steve

Steve

Re: Audio Myths Thread
« Reply #99 on: 16 Jun 2019, 02:17 am »
OK, let's move on.  Found this link regarding audio myths:

http://sound.whsites.net/articles/myths.html

So have a read and let folks know what you think!

Some comments regarding the first section. I did not read any further as the errors in the first section are
applied to the rest of the article, thus rendering the conclusions non-scientific. That does not mean all the
conclusions are incorrect, just not arrived at scientifically. His comment concerning counter-arguments
to the testing procedure being trite is completely without foundation and is non-scientific.

1. His claim of one db is probably applicable for spl, but not even anywhere close for frequency response deviations.

2. His understanding of testing is extremely limited, being limited to only "sight" as a confound variable (or variable confound).

3. Again, the rest of the paper's conclusions is based upon listening testing errors, thus non-scientific. (I hope I did not break any rules on the forum.)

cheers
steve