[MikeK123]

Hi All,

 I'm just not getting the sound-stage I expected from my current system. I've upgraded the Amp's tubes to Genalex Gold Lions, and the coupling caps to Mundorf EVO gold/silver/oil. Still no staging.

I'm ready to spend $3k or so upgrading. I just don't know where to apply it. I'm wondering if the Bryston Pi streamer is my key problem (I hear the 'Pi' simply uses an Arduino to do the streaming). Next, maybe I shouldn't drive the amp directly from the Antelope... maybe I need a nice pre-amp (I was looking at a used Audio Research SP8). Anyway, below is my system's components. Any opinions on where I should upgrade (and maybe to what brand/model) is greatly appreciated.  BTW, I do prefer used stuff.

I have 4gB of music on a NAS feeding a Bryston Pi streamer, going to an Antelope Gold DAC that feeds directly into a Rogue 88 tube amp. My speakers are EPS Montana-2's. I use Roon.

[witchdoctor]

Hi All,

 I'm just not getting the sound-stage I expected from my current system. I've upgraded the Amp's tubes to Genalex Gold Lions, and the coupling caps to Mundorf EVO gold/silver/oil. Still no staging.

I'm ready to spend $3k or so upgrading. I just don't know where to apply it. I'm wondering if the Bryston Pi streamer is my key problem (I hear the 'Pi' simply uses an Arduino to do the streaming). Next, maybe I shouldn't drive the amp directly from the Antelope... maybe I need a nice pre-amp (I was looking at a used Audio Research SP8). Anyway, below is my system's components. Any opinions on where I should upgrade (and maybe to what brand/model) is greatly appreciated.  BTW, I do prefer used stuff.

I have 4gB of music on a NAS feeding a Bryston Pi streamer, going to an Antelope Gold DAC that feeds directly into a Rogue 88 tube amp. My speakers are EPS Montana-2's. I use Roon.

Have you tried a good power conditioner? I noticed when I started using one it really improved the soundstage in my system.

[audioengr]

Hi All,

 I'm just not getting the sound-stage I expected from my current system. I've upgraded the Amp's tubes to Genalex Gold Lions, and the coupling caps to Mundorf EVO gold/silver/oil. Still no staging.

I'm ready to spend $3k or so upgrading. I just don't know where to apply it. I'm wondering if the Bryston Pi streamer is my key problem (I hear the 'Pi' simply uses an Arduino to do the streaming). Next, maybe I shouldn't drive the amp directly from the Antelope... maybe I need a nice pre-amp (I was looking at a used Audio Research SP8). Anyway, below is my system's components. Any opinions on where I should upgrade (and maybe to what brand/model) is greatly appreciated.  BTW, I do prefer used stuff.

I have 4gB of music on a NAS feeding a Bryston Pi streamer, going to an Antelope Gold DAC that feeds directly into a Rogue 88 tube amp. My speakers are EPS Montana-2's. I use Roon.

The Rogue amp probably does not need a strong DAC driver to sound good.  I don't use any active pre to my SET monoblocks.

Sounds like you might have high jitter from the streamer.  Not uncommon.  You could try a Synchro-Mesh reclocker, but the Antelope DAC already has a reclocker on the input.  May be unfixable with these components.

The Arduino module is an inexpensive solution with no galvanic isolation compared to what I make.  I would at least get a txUSBULTRA from SOtM and another USB cable and a good one like the Wireworld Platinum.  I would not do USB without it.

Another thing you can do if you stay with your current components is to add a Plasmatron AC regulator.  Best thing for digital.

Your cables are critical here, including power cable to the DAC and the USB cable to the DAC.  Wireworld Platinum is a good choice for USB.  Power cable is another matter.  Nothing people bring over for me to try impresses me.

I have a feeling that you are polishing a turd here, but not sure where it is.  I have had people bring over well regarded DAC's to my system before and they immediately took them out when hearing my DAC.

Steve N.

[MikeK123]

So AudioEng, you and WitchDoctor seem to suspect its power or cable related. So I'll throw some money at those upgrades you're both suggesting (thanks). The jitter you mention from the streamer seems my suspicious point in the system. Maybe I should should dump the Pi and get a better streamer. I like Bryston's BDP-2, but I sense I may be paying for it's server capability and I already have a nice NAS. I've seen several Aurilic Aries streamers for sale. I recently read a 2015 reveiw on the Antelope DAC  that it didn't have a deep sound stage. So, I'd replace the DAC but I fear a new DAC will sound the same (as in, all DACs sound alike). Am I wrong? If I did change DACs, would a tube DAC (like Audio Research's DAC-7) be an improvement? Or should I go with a much newer solid-state DAC like a PS Audio Stellar Gain?  (I seldom play files higher than 192k). Thanks again for you and WitchDoctor's input.

[Mike-48]

I am dubious that money put into power cords will produce the kind of improvement you are looking for. I have heard many outstanding systems with great soundstaging and that used stock power cords.

My recommendation is, borrow a better digital source to try out. The RPi streamers I've heard were not outstanding. Another alternative would be to try a quality reclocker, something like the Mutec MC-3+USB that is based on engineering. That would address both jitter and the DAC's possible sensitivity to it. However, it might be harder to borrow a Mutec than a source component.

If you think line noise might be a problem, borrow a power filter from a fellow audiophile or dealer or get one that can be returned. It has been noted by many users that most of them can sound better in one system & make the sound worse in another.

Of course, I am not the only audiophile with an opinion, but the one that counts is yours. You have enough invested right now that the only way to tell what's going to improve things is to listen with your own ears.

[audioengr]

So AudioEng, you and WitchDoctor seem to suspect its power or cable related. So I'll throw some money at those upgrades you're both suggesting (thanks). The jitter you mention from the streamer seems my suspicious point in the system. Maybe I should should dump the Pi and get a better streamer. I like Bryston's BDP-2, but I sense I may be paying for it's server capability and I already have a nice NAS. I've seen several Aurilic Aries streamers for sale.

If you stick with USB, the tx-USBUltra should improve the jitter. You will need this with ANY DAC.

I recently read a 2015 reveiw on the Antelope DAC  that it didn't have a deep sound stage. So, I'd replace the DAC but I fear a new DAC will sound the same (as in, all DACs sound alike). Am I wrong?

Yes, very wrong.

If I did change DACs, would a tube DAC (like Audio Research's DAC-7) be an improvement? Or should I go with a much newer solid-state DAC like a PS Audio Stellar Gain?  (I seldom play files higher than 192k). Thanks again for you and WitchDoctor's input.

I can recommend a few less expensive DACs:

1) Metrum Pavane with volume control
2) Chord Dave
3) Denafripps Terminator
4) TotalDACs
5) Holo Audio Spring DAC
6) Aqua HIFI

This is a good resource:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/annual-bits-2018

Steve N.

[WGH]

I'm just not getting the sound-stage I expected from my current system.

Did you ever get an excellent sound stage? Could be as simple as bad speaker placement.
As an experiment move your chair close as to make an equilateral triangle with the speakers. I'll bet you have a soundstage now.
Adjust your music room accordingly to keep the soundstage you can live with.

[SFDude]

Did you ever get an excellent sound stage? Could be as simple as bad speaker placement.
As an experiment move your chair close as to make an equilateral triangle with the speakers. I'll bet you have a soundstage now.
Adjust your music room accordingly to keep the soundstage you can live with.

I’d definitely echo WGH’s recommendation on adjusting placement of speakers in your room first to determine if that’s the simple “fix” to get better soundstage and imaging. Those speakers should be more than capable of it (I heard what they can do a while ago and I can attest to their capabilities).

Next, possibly borrow a Lumin D2 streamer + DAC in one unit. I run Roon and serve up local files along with streaming via Tidal/Qobuz. Awesome little unit that has me not wanting anything much at this point (unless I am prepared to spend 5x more for its older sibling, which I’m not).

-dave

[MikeK123]

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions. I'm gonna investigate each idea and resolve this puzzle. You've all given me great lots to think about. Thanks again.

[Tyson]

How big is your room?  How close are the speakers to the front wall?  How close to the side walls?  Do you have a rack with audio equipment between your speakers?  Do you have glass between your speakers (TV)?  Do you have glass behind/beside the speakers (windows)?  What room treatment do you have?  Is the floor hardwood or carpeted? 

[JLM]

This thread is IMO in the wrong circle.  As Tyson said, always check speakers, room, and physical setup first.  Of course check for proper phase hookups.  Most "over gear" for the given room and certainly the PBN Montana-2's could be a prime candidate for that!  Imaging is mostly a factor of speaker/setup.  I've found that center stage imaging is hugely affected by even a very small rack along the front wall between speakers. 

Stereophile's review of the original Montana's indicate much setup fussiness relating to horizontal dispersion but with very good imaging, so do play with physical setup first.  Again, from Stereophile lateral dispersion is well controlled but the speaker is not time coherent, perhaps the later version corrected this.

[witchdoctor]

So AudioEng, you and WitchDoctor seem to suspect its power or cable related. So I'll throw some money at those upgrades you're both suggesting (thanks). The jitter you mention from the streamer seems my suspicious point in the system. Maybe I should should dump the Pi and get a better streamer. I like Bryston's BDP-2, but I sense I may be paying for it's server capability and I already have a nice NAS. I've seen several Aurilic Aries streamers for sale. I recently read a 2015 reveiw on the Antelope DAC  that it didn't have a deep sound stage. So, I'd replace the DAC but I fear a new DAC will sound the same (as in, all DACs sound alike). Am I wrong? If I did change DACs, would a tube DAC (like Audio Research's DAC-7) be an improvement? Or should I go with a much newer solid-state DAC like a PS Audio Stellar Gain?  (I seldom play files higher than 192k). Thanks again for you and WitchDoctor's input.

My thinking is to start from the wall and work outward. Upgrade the wall socket, then power conditioner, then power cables. The wall socket can be upgraded for less than $100 and will impact EVERYTHING plugged into it. Audioadvisor.com will offer you 30 day auditions and have a whole line of power products.

[poseidonsvoice]

How big is your room?  How close are the speakers to the front wall?  How close to the side walls?  Do you have a rack with audio equipment between your speakers?  Do you have glass between your speakers (TV)?  Do you have glass behind/beside the speakers (windows)?  What room treatment do you have?  Is the floor hardwood or carpeted? 

This thread is IMO in the wrong circle.  As Tyson said, always check speakers, room, and physical setup first.  Of course check for proper phase hookups.  Most "over gear" for the given room and certainly the PBN Montana-2's could be a prime candidate for that!  Imaging is mostly a factor of speaker/setup.  I've found that center stage imaging is hugely affected by even a very small rack along the front wall between speakers. 

Stereophile's review of the original Montana's indicate much setup fussiness relating to horizontal dispersion but with very good imaging, so do play with physical setup first.  Again, from Stereophile lateral dispersion is well controlled but the speaker is not time coherent, perhaps the later version corrected this.

The above responses are important and relevant to the OP’s current issues (and thank you WGH and SFDude). I find Audioengr/Empirical Audio/Steve Nugents response disconcerting and somewhat self serving. But okay and whatever.

Best,
Anand.

[ric]

Hi, perplexing problem. If you can, get another set of ears besides your own, and verify that the soundstaging is sub-par. Perhaps get some other speakers in the room, if you can, and try to verify--is it the room, or the speakers. I would avoid as the other guy said, polishing a turd, and just guessing what the problem is by buying something that may or may not fix the problem.
Can you move (PITA) some of the equipment into another room? Call the manufacturer and get advice?
   If you are an imaging freak, I own and suggest Spatial Audio or other open baffle speakers. For me, they image like a moe foe.
Another contributor for imaging (for me) is...vinyl, superior to my cd setup (don't do streaming yet).
A third contributor for imaging is my DIY Shakti Hallowgraphs. I would not be without these for soundstaging. Email me if you are handy with wood and want to make a pair.
-Good luck!

[S Clark]

I'll echo JLM--  focus on the room before electronics.  Temporary things like blankets, sleeping bags, comforters, pillows, etc can be place around at key points in your room to see how sound is affected. 
A few photos of your room would help. 

[OzarkTom]

I will mirror Tyson's response. Are your  speakers too big for the room? In smaller rooms I have found smaller  speakers will give you a bigger soundstage and better SQ. I would try that before I  spent big bucks on any other items.

[MikeK123]

Thanks everyone for your generous advice. Placement of the speakers seems to be the key issue I need to correct, though a few hardware changes may be required too.

My room is 25 x 16ft, with about half of  that shared with the kitchen. The listening area (thus 12x 16ft) is a somewhat rectangular portion of that room, with the speakers at the narrow end of that virtual rectangle. So, one speaker is in the corner, the other unbounded on the sides. Due to logistical restraints they're only out from the wall by a foot (with a 3in sound absorbing panel behind each, and on the side-wall at the corner). Exacerbating this poor arrangement (I'm now embarrassed to say) is a 6ft couch which sits between the speakers, nearly touching each. Sheesh... what was a mystery to me before is now glaringly evident from everyone's comments: I need to move the speakers out further and remove the couch (I'm hanging my head in shame as I type this BTW!).    . Unfortunately, such changes are not possible due to... reality.

I'd selected the Montana EPS-2 speakers because of their beauty, and because a review or two mentioned their sonic forgiveness when placed somewhat close to the wall. I clearly blew-off the meaning of 'somewhat'. One suggestion (thanks Sumoker) was to purchase the Spacial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers. OK, can do, but when reading those speaker's reviews I picked-up that they were 'relatively' forgiving about near-wall placement. Now I need to get some clarity on that word, 'relatively', since I don't want my optimism to cause me to park these things too close to the wall again. Any opinions about how close to the wall the M3's can be is appreciated.

Lastly, I find myself pausing and wondering how a $3k 30lb speaker (the M3) could actually sound better than my $10k 200lb Montana's. It sort of breaks my sense of reality. I also play my soft Jazz at very low volumes and most of the M3 reviews seemed to comment on their loudness capability... but no mention of performance at very low volume. So... that needs investigation. One real advantage the smaller M3's will provide is that I can place them in a different part of the room if necessary... but I'm still questioning whether the M3's are my best option. 

Thanks again everyone for your kind input.

[audioengr]

I'd selected the Montana EPS-2 speakers because of their beauty, and because a review or two mentioned their sonic forgiveness when placed somewhat close to the wall. I clearly blew-off the meaning of 'somewhat'. One suggestion (thanks Sumoker) was to purchase the Spacial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers. OK, can do, but when reading those speaker's reviews I picked-up that they were 'relatively' forgiving about near-wall placement. Now I need to get some clarity on that word, 'relatively', since I don't want my optimism to cause me to park these things too close to the wall again. Any opinions about how close to the wall the M3's can be is appreciated.

I've heard Montanas at shows several times and never with good imaging.  They were usually pushed to the back wall.  You may improve things if you move them at least 30" off the backwall and play with toe-in.  If you have a TV screen between them, this will ruin the image every time.  There are ways to improve this too if that is the case.  Never put absorbing material on the backwall between them, only diffusors/scattering devices.  Also, Sonex or similar absorbing material at both sidewalls where you see the tweeters in a mirror placed on the sidewall from the listening position.

Ultimately,  I would think about different speakers.

Steve N.

[MikeK123]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give those Montana's up. They do sound beautiful... though, I now realize, they're critical on placement if I want the imaging. Thanks AudioEngr. Any thoughts on whether the Spacial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers is my solution?

[Tyson]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give those Montana's up. They do sound beautiful... though, I now realize, they're critical on placement if I want the imaging. Thanks AudioEngr. Any thoughts on whether the Spacial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers is my solution?

I had exactly the same type of room/layout you do, and I had to live with it that way for years and years and years.  I tried all kinds of different box solutions and even some very advanced room EQ and DSP (hello DEQX).  But nothing really addressed the fundamental problem of a bad room. 

UNTIL!!!  Yes, until I got an Open Baffle speaker in there.  Suddenly all my imbalance issues and my imaging issues and my weird bass loading issues, all got solved in one fell swoop.  So the M3s are DEFINITELY a step in the right direction for you.  I used to have VMPS RM40's which are similar size/capabilities to your Montanas and I too thought the OB speaker seemed like a toy vs my RM40's.  But the reality is that the OB speakers kicked the crap out of my very large tower speakers.  Shocking.  I now know it's because OB speakers just work better in difficult rooms. 

Re: distance from the wall - do me a favor - measure how far from the back wall is the front baffle of your Montanas?  I'd bet the front of your speaker is at least 2 feet from the rear wall, probably closer to 3 feet.  Well, guess what, that's exactly how far you should have an OB speaker from the rear wall.  So an OB will work quite well in your setup.

HOWEVER, I would not rec the M3 for you.  You'll give up too much bass impact coming from a big tower speaker like that.  I'd recommend getting the new X5 from Spatial Audio, which is fully OB but also has a self-powered 15 inch woofer on the bass.  This will solve all your placement/acoustic issues while keeping a ton of bass impact and slam.