[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

I do know what he is talking about as I do tend to turn my sub off on certain material because of the natural tonality of the bass notes. Mostly on jazz and music that uses a stand up double bass or instruments that seem to be recorded via microphone rather than through a DI or there own amplifier and the Spatial's will do a very good job of letting the natural tones of the instrument shine. When i use my sub it is mostly on newer recordings or recordings that use electric bass or synthesized bass tones

Thanks, I have read this as well. I’d say 90% of what I play has electric/synthesized bass which is my concern.

[harley.guy07]

I like the way that Paul McGowen of PS Audio puts in that any good speaker system even large ones can benefit from a subwoofer. Subwoofers if built and powered correctly and installed into the system and tuned the right way will completely be non detectable. I also subscribe to Pauls hook up method of hooking the sub up to the speaker output leads of the main power amp so that the sub picks up the characteristics of the main power amp of the speakers. I have done this in many systems and have never had a person point out a sub in a system yet. They just sound like an extension of the main speakers.

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

I like the way that Paul McGowen of PS Audio puts in that any good speaker system even large ones can benefit from a subwoofer. Subwoofers if built and powered correctly and installed into the system and tuned the right way will completely be non detectable. I also subscribe to Pauls hook up method of hooking the sub up to the speaker output leads of the main power amp so that the sub picks up the characteristics of the main power amp of the speakers. I have done this in many systems and have never had a person point out a sub in a system yet. They just sound like an extension of the main speakers.

Which makes sense. Some have said adding a sub adds dimension to the sound. Not sure I can picture how but what do I know.

[harley.guy07]

In my experience it does add something to the sound all the way around. I know I will have people on here that will argue this point but when I add the sub to the system my Spatial's seem to breath and sound more emotional and full. Don't get me wrong i have done tests on my Spatial's and they have a very flat response down to around 38 Hz so on the sub i cross over low enough to do nothing but augment the already good low end on the M3's.

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

In my experience it does add something to the sound all the way around. I know I will have people on here that will argue this point but when I add the sub to the system my Spatial's seem to breath and sound more emotional and full. Don't get me wrong i have done tests on my Spatial's and they have a very flat response down to around 38 Hz so on the sub i cross over low enough to do nothing but augment the already good low end on the M3's.

So then, honest question: if one with more eclectic tastes will likely add a sub to their set up, why bother with the M3? According to something I read, Clayton Shaw said they are the same (m3 and m4) save for the smaller drivers which result in a higher low frequency ceiling (40hz). So why not save the grand?

I’m genuinely interested in the answers 

[rollo]

  What a sub brings is low frequencies. A piano goes down to 28HZ as an example. A properly placed sub will add these frequencies and fill out the sound stage as well. A more more linear presentation.



charles
 

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

  What a sub brings is low frequencies. A piano goes down to 28HZ as an example. A properly placed sub will add these frequencies and fill out the sound stage as well. A more more linear presentation.



charles
 

Which totally makes sense. I'm just wondering out loud that if I go M3 and still need a sub, I might be better served by going M4 since I'm adding a sub anyway. I'd like to NOT have to run a sub, but I won't know if I can or not unless I buy. CONUNDRUM. 

[Tyson]

If you're going to end up needing a sub anyway, I'd strongly recommend getting a servo controlled OB sub.  Here's a link to one that's DIY that will be the last sub you will ever need.  Fully OB and will punch you in the chest like a Mofo, goes all the way down to 16hz strong and goes LOUD:

http://gr-research.com/servosubkit4.aspx

I use a pair of them, built into my Super 7 speakers, and trust me this sub will rock your world. 

Oh, but compared to what?  Well I've been a bass head all my life, I've owned and built some crazy system.  The latest thing I've built is this box sub from Dayton Audio, the 18" Ultimax:






I'll tell you what, that 18" Ultimax with a Crown Audio K2 doing 1000 watts into it is freaking awesome.  How does the GR Research OB setup compare?  The GR Research OB setup is so much better, I'd take it over the Ultimax every day of the week.  And twice on Sundays. 

Combined with the M3 you'd have a reference level system that you could live with for a very long time, IMO.

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

If you're going to end up needing a sub anyway, I'd strongly recommend getting a servo controlled OB sub.  Here's a link to one that's DIY that will be the last sub you will ever need.  Fully OB and will punch you in the chest like a Mofo, goes all the way down to 16hz strong and goes LOUD:

http://gr-research.com/servosubkit4.aspx

I use a pair of them, built into my Super 7 speakers, and trust me this sub will rock your world. 

Oh, but compared to what?  Well I've been a bass head all my life, I've owned and built some crazy system.  The latest thing I've built is this box sub from Dayton Audio, the 18" Ultimax:






I'll tell you what, that 18" Ultimax with a Crown Audio K2 doing 1000 watts into it is freaking awesome.  How does the GR Research OB setup compare?  The GR Research OB setup is so much better, I'd take it over the Ultimax every day of the week.  And twice on Sundays. 

Combined with the M3 you'd have a reference level system that you could live with for a very long time, IMO.

I will look into it. Thanks! 

[Wind Chaser]

Hey Monkey,

Bass is wonderful, but how much bass will it take to satisfy any given person depends...

Here’s another way of looking at it. How much bass are you accustomed to? For example, if you don’t own a sub and you’ve been happy with stand mounts that get down to 50 Hz, then you won’t be disappointed with the bass of the M4 since it will provide you with more then what you’ve been accustomed to. 

Myself, I considered the M4 but I knew they wouldn’t satisfy me without a sub because I’d miss having bass extension down to 35 Hz. So I chose the M3 over the M4 in part for that reason, and guess what... I’m perfectly fine without a sub. I would also add that OB bass is flat out superior to boxy bass, and as such quality is better quantity.

The M3 gets down to 32 Hz. That spec is more than deep enough for at least 99% of all music. Sure a piano can go a little deeper, but even if you are fanatical about piano music, how often do piano players hit those deepest notes? Same thing with pipe organs and synthesizers. The point is if you care more about quality than quantity, then there are better ways to make use of limited funds.

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

Hey Monkey,

Bass is wonderful, but how much bass will it take to satisfy any given person depends...

Here’s another way of looking at it. How much bass are you accustomed to? For example, if you don’t own a sub and you’ve been happy with stand mounts that get down to 50 Hz, then you won’t be disappointed with the bass of the M4 since it will provide you with more then what you’ve been accustomed to. 

Myself, I considered the M4 but I knew they wouldn’t satisfy me without a sub because I’d miss having bass extension down to 35 Hz. So I chose the M3 over the M4 in part for that reason, and guess what... I’m perfectly fine without a sub. I would also add that OB bass is flat out superior to boxy bass, and as such quality is better quantity.

The M3 gets down to 32 Hz. That spec is more than deep enough for at least 99% of all music. Sure a piano can go a little deeper, but even if you are fanatical about piano music, how often do piano players hit those deepest notes? Same thing with pipe organs and synthesizers. The point is if you care more about quality than quantity, then there are better ways to make use of limited funds.

You are very correct. And I freely admit I’m ignorant to the “sound” of OB bass. On paper 32hz is perfect. And maybe I’m just psyching myself out on all this. You are also correct in that I enjoy my Focal stand mounts really only wishing for more bass. I still ponder keeping them and adding a sub, but I do t feel like they are endgame speaker for me.

I have a shot at hearing speakers from Spatial, Zu and Tekton in a couple of weeks and I’m hopeful I come away excited about the Spatial. Even though I wasn’t looking at anything but bookshelf/stand mounts, the Spatials  have me excited.

[harley.guy07]

I have built and own the Dayton Audio Ultimax 18 sealed sub enclosure and it is awesome as a theater sub after i flattened the response with a micro usb. But in saying that it is great for movies in my theater setup, I would never put it with the Spatials as they would never match up well. I use a custom built sub that is much more musical and tight and a much better match. The Ulitimax is a theater king for the money but not a music sub in my opinion

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

I have built and own the Dayton Audio Ultimax 18 sealed sub enclosure and it is awesome as a theater sub after i flattened the response with a micro usb. But in saying that it is great for movies in my theater setup, I would never put it with the Spatials as they would never match up well. I use a custom built sub that is much more musical and tight and a much better match. The Ulitimax is a theater king for the money but not a music sub in my opinion

OOF, I have to imaging thats a tough sub for apartment dwellers. 

[Tyson]

Did you get a chance to check these out? 

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

Did you get a chance to check these out? 

I did, looked at the plans and all. Not sure thats the direction I'd want to go.  Keeping it in mind though.

[Tyson]

I did, looked at the plans and all. Not sure thats the direction I'd want to go.  Keeping it in mind though.

Just curious - why not?

[harley.guy07]

Yeah the Ultimax 18 really kicks for movies and goes all the way down below all movies i have tried. using room eq wizzard and a mini dsp i flattened the response to where it is flat all the way down and really digs deap. My music sub is also a Dayton but it is a HO 8" sealed and really matches with the Spatial's well for a sealed sub not a OB. I keep it crossed over at around 45 Hz or so so it really kicks in when the Spatial's start to fall off which just really picks up the bottom octaves. It really brings things alive in the room though even though it is a small 8". I think that is part of the reason why. The speed of the sub really allows it to match the speed of the spatial bass quite well. But I would love to play around with some of the OB sub options in the DIY world out there like the ones above. I work as a technician at a wood and metal working company so i wood work as a hobby that is why I am able to easily build my subs instead of buying them. Also being good at computers allows me to understand how programs like REW and a MINI DSP work to tame a huge sub like the Ultimax 18"

[MONKEYWICKEDMONKEY]

Just curious - why not?

I'm trying to avoid a sub if at all possible. I don't know what my future holds except that I will be continuously downsizing and so having a sub means one more piece to have to account for. I don't have the facility to build something (though I like working with my hands) so although I'm not ruling it out, its not where I want to go with things. I did save the links so if thats a way I want to go I'd do it. But as I said, I want to avoid having to run subs if at all possible.

[Tyson]

I'm trying to avoid a sub if at all possible. I don't know what my future holds except that I will be continuously downsizing and so having a sub means one more piece to have to account for. I don't have the facility to build something (though I like working with my hands) so although I'm not ruling it out, its not where I want to go with things. I did save the links so if thats a way I want to go I'd do it. But as I said, I want to avoid having to run subs if at all possible.

Your goal of downsizing seems to be in conflict with your desire for full range bass production.

[harley.guy07]

I know you say a sub i not ideal and building a custom one is not in your wheelhouse at this point.

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=1MLDY700W&variation=10BLK&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIn8ffscv04gIVkfhkCh074ALKEAYYBCABEgLSzvD_BwE

this little sub right above is a great sub for the money. It's no REL or as good as my custom built one but i don't think you could find to much that could beat it for that price and the thing is small and lite so it would not be that much to deal with. If you are totally against the sub idea I understand but since I have incorporated subs in my systems and done it the correct way they brought so much more to the table I don't think i could go back