[Jim W.]

Hey all,

I've been thinking about doing a little experimentation with my Super 3Rs with F120A drivers.  I want a "musical" tube-like SS amplifier and have been thinking in the $900 to $1,200 range (100 to 125 watts).  My search has brought me to older McIntosh MC 2105 and 2125 or newer McCormack DNA 125 or DNA-1 Deluxe.

Anyone have experience, suggestions?

My low-power tube amp (8 watts) is great, but I'm beginning to dislike the compromise since my speakers are 90db.  Can't really rock when I want to now can I...

Thanks,

Jim

[arthurs]

Sunfire Signature....yep, there I said it, Sunfire

[JLM]

Jim,

I think you're on the right track in looking for tube sound and solid state dampening.  I've yet to hear a Fostex driver that doesn't benefit from tube amplification.  I started out thinking I'd use a 12 wpc tube integrated, but with floorstanding transmission line, the F200A need solid state dampened bass.  But for my taste, in an 11 ft x 19 ft x 8 ft room the 12 wpc were enough.  YMMV

Will the F120A handle 100 watts??  (My F200A's are only rated for 27 watts continous and 80 watt peaks.)  Anyway the difference between say 40 watts and 100 watts is only 4 dB.  


Chip amps are supposed to synergize very well with single driver speakers.  I tried a borrowed DIY chip amp, but it had severe power supply hum and 94.9 FM reception problems.  Instead, I've been looking at these:

Audio Zone AMP-STi, $1300 for a 40 wpc integrated.  Very slick/minimalistic design.

Scott Nixon (don't know the price, guessing about $700) for a 40 wpc integrated chip amp.  Comes across as DIY done really right.

Channel Island Audio $500/40 watt chip amp monoblocks (nicer than the Scott Nixon stuff).  Dusty also sells a $250 passive preamp to go with them.


Blue Circle has a 50 wpc integrated for about $1200 that is supposed to sound a bit like a tube.  Well built, big wooden knobs.

Unison reportedly has a smaller/less expensive tube/solid state hybrid integrated amp, check with underwoodwally.  It's big brother was everyone's love a couple of years ago.


Thanks for posting, as I've been toying with the idea of small/sweet amps, but have the same concerns regarding not quite enough power from these little guys.

[Jim W.]

JLM,

I know what I'm looking for as far as sound is concerned.  I'm just not sure how to describe it or obtain it.  I listen to live music at least once every couple of weeks and listen carefully to percussion, upright bass, piano, vocals, guitar, etc.  I'll try an analogy of sorts.

Live music in my opinion has more "weight" at low SPLs in comparison to that of reproduced sound.  For example, I know motorcycles so here's an analogy.  What makes riding and cornering fun is torque, not horsepower.  Just like driving a sportscar.  It's the ability to exit a corner and roll-on the throttle from a low speed and there's tons of torque on tap to propel you out of the turn at a blistering rate of acceleration.  The idea here is that top speed (i.e., horsepower) is not as important, it's the low-end grunt that's fun.  So, think thrust for a jet, torque for a car or bike, etc.

So, for audio, I don't want ear-shattering SPLs or high "horsepower."  I want "torque" or weight, depth, impact, etc. at low SPLs.  Know what I mean?  I want live music in my room   !  I want "massive" music, not "loud" music.  I want "momentum" as in the difference between a sledgehammer and a 22 oz. framing hammer traveling at the same speed driving a nail.  And, I want delicate refinement of subtle nuances.  Too much to ask?

A subwoofer is in the not-too-distant future as well.

Thanks,

Jim

[rosconey]

kall klaus at odyssey - ask about the cyclops- i think it fits your bill and have a second sets of outs added for future subwoofers

[JLM]

Jim,

Seems like you're describing what I call "telling the speakers what to do" versus "asking them what to do" or "bullying" the speakers around.  The amp should have a firm, controlling, unquestionable grip on the drivers.

Music is more like road racing than drag racing, you need dynamic performance (strong brakes, good acceleration, agility, and handling on the rough roads).  

That's why I recommend matching amps to speakers such that they can reach 105 dB.  You may never listen that loud but IMO should provide a practical rule of thumb for sizing amps.  For 92 dB/w/m speakers, you'd need at least 13 dB of gain or 20 wpc in a typical room (say 2000 cu. ft.) to reach 105 dB.  

Going with too big of an amp can result in loss of agility and handling as signal paths get longer and more complex.  Thats what I like about 20 - 40 wpc chip amps, they're very short circuit paths and pretty simple for a solid state design (rather like a SET).  Louis has reportedly used the Audio Zone chip amps to good effect.

[Jim W.]

With a max rating of 89 dB and 30 watts music power for the F120A, I'm only able to muster 104 dB - I believe that's correct.  And, that's one meter away?

I've tried some chip amps, which were very good.  However, it wasn't enough to move me from the MiniMax.  Yes, the dynamics and bass response improved, but I felt like something was lost.  So, I'm still looking.

My little rig sounds very good and it will take something extremely good to move me from my Omegas and MiniMax.

I'll continue to watch Audigon for low-power SS amps.  What about tube amps with SS rectification?  Any options?

[JLM]

Jim,

Yes power handling/output capabilities of the F120A is rather limited.  My experience is that in a typical residental room (say 12 ft x 20 ft x 8 ft) distance losses (beyond 1 meter) are roughly compensated by room reflective gains plus having two channels.  So you could probably reach around 104 in room with your speakers.

Best to have too much power than not enough, all else being equal, as its better to feed too much clean signal than not enough distorted signal as the clipped signal will burn up voice coils faster than pushing the suspension too far.  So ideally you should look in the 40 or 50 wpc range.

The SET sound is hard to beat, if you're not having issues with bloated, uncontrolled bass.  Your 8 wpc amp is putting out 9 dB of gain.  A 30 wpc amp would only add 5 dB more (something between half again and twice as loud).  As with anything in audio, the last steps to nirvana is VERY difficult.  I don't believe Louis had nirvana in mind with his products, just 80% there at 20% of the cost.  With the F120A you gave up ultimate spls, but should have better sound quality.  

Frankly I don't know of an affordable 40 wpc amp that would match SET sound with control bass.  Let me know if you find one.

[MarcD in NYC]

My 2 cents... I am looking to try pairing a Naim Nait 3 with my Omega 3's.  A Naim-a-holic friend of mine is on the upgrade path, and will likely let me have a go of it before he trades it in.  While Naim is never compared to SET sound, they have remarkable ability for immediacy and control over speakers. Nait 3 is 30-35wpc and should work well with the 92db of my Omega's.  I think it would do the same for the F120a versions as well.  You can usually find entry level naim gear on Audiogon every couple weeks at reasonable prices.  hope this helps, or at least points in a direction of interest.

[mcgsxr]

I would recommend a listen to either the Sugden A21a, or the Monarchy SM-70 - both are Class A designs, and deliver real world 25wpc - the Sugden is likely to be an integrated, though there are power amp versions floating around out there.

Just my thoughts - I am supremely happy with my modded Teac at 30wpc, but am using different speakers - DIY.

[DSK]

Hey all,
I've been thinking about doing a little experimentation with my Super 3Rs with F120A drivers.  I want a "musical" tube-like SS amplifier and have been thinking in the $900 to $1,200 range (100 to 125 watts)...

Hi Jim,
If you are handy with a soldering iron (or know someone who is) take a look at the AKSA Nirvana Plus (100w). It fits your criteria perfectly and bested my Plinius SA100/3 ($4k) and the Bel Canto EVO2 (3k) in my system.

Cheers,
Darren.

[JLM]

Thanks guys!

I knew that if I threw down the challenge (not knowing of a good amp alternative), someone would pick up the scent and pounce on the chance to help Jim out.

[kbuzz3]

My pair of flying moles were bought as a temporary solution while my vintage tube monos were being repaired. ITs 10 months later and they are still in the system. They synergize very well with the my super 3 narrows. However I do use a tube pre amp with them.

Good luck I love to hear some feed back on the channel islands amps as well

[Jim W.]

Anyone have experience with Transcendent OTL amps?  All I need is a local dealer with a good SET, OTL, and that new First Watt amplifier, and a few rear-loaded horn and bass-reflex speakers utilizing Fostex drivers and this whole figuring out what I want thing would be a snap, no?

Too bad HT's taken over the world.

By the way, I bought a pair of those new Fostex Fe166ES-R drivers.  Don't ask me why...  Maybe Louis can build a box for me...  Although, the folks in Japan seem to be having great success with rear-loaded horn designs.  Thank goodness for on-line translators.

[MarcD in NYC]

By the way, I bought a pair of those new Fostex Fe166ES-R drivers. Don't ask me why... Maybe Louis can build a box for me... Although, the folks in Japan seem to be having great success with rear-loaded horn designs. Thank goodness for on-line translators.

I bought in on the FE-166ES-R's too,  Sounded too good to miss an opportunity.  While I love Louis' reflex designs, I also attribute my love for the fostex drivers to him also.  Which has inspired me to have a pair of BLH's made to compare the experience.  I wouldn't be suprised if Louis has a pair on his work bench this very moment, I am sure he was as every bit curious as the rest of us.