I would like opinions on NewForm 645R V2 please

Lord_Magnepan · « **on:** 27 Jan 2005, 08:23 pm »

Hello fellow Audio friends !!!

The US system (3.6R Krell etc.) is unfortunatly in a unfortunate 14ft x 17ft room. After having finally found a position which is acceptable i find that my new music listening direction and preferences have turned a bit away from the Maggies. I cannot afford to treat early reflections, backwall reflections, subwoofers and external x-overs to make them sound good in the room.

I have been looking for alternatives and want to buy the NewForm Research 645R V2. I heard that this is the place to come for unbiased opinions and great recommendations. My Maggies are currently for sale for 3K (OBO) !! Just mail me.

Can you all please give me some of your impressions and maybe listening or owner experience about NewForm speakers in general.

Thank you very much

Florian

doug s. · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 10:17 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Magnepan

Hello fellow Audio friends !!!

The US system (3.6R Krell etc.) is unfortunatly in a unfortunate 14ft x 17ft room. After having finally found a position which is acceptable i find that my new music listening direction and preferences have turned a bit away from the Maggies. I cannot afford to treat early reflections, backwall reflections, subwoofers and external x-overs to make them sound good in the room.

I have been looking for alternatives and want to buy the NewForm Research 645R V2. I heard that t ...

a friend of mine has a pair of the original 645r's. excellent speaker, imo. they would certainly work better in a small room like yours, than any speaker like the maggies, imo. but, yust one word of caution. be sure you can have at least 10' between you & the newforms. due to their configuration, w/woofers on the bottom, & ribbons on the top, there *is* a disconnect in the sound at the x-over point. but, it all but disappears if yure far enuff away from the speakers. 10' will do it. before my friend built his new room, he had them set up ~6'-8' away from the listening position, & the disconnect in the sound at 1khz was a distraction...

doug s.

Lord_Magnepan · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 10:27 pm »

Well thank you very much for the reply. I will be sitting about 13ft from the speaker with my ears at 46inhes hight. Have you heard the 3.6R ? If so, how would you compare them in terms of "being there" ?

Thanks again

Florian

doug s. · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Magnepan

Well thank you very much for the reply. I will be sitting about 13ft from the speaker with my ears at 46inhes hight. Have you heard the 3.6R ? If so, how would you compare them in terms of "being there" ?

Thanks again

Florian

hi florian,

i haven't heard the 3.6, but my tastes have never leaned to dipolar speakers. for my personal tastes, i have found their soundstaging to be way over-done and too diffuse, w/o enough focus.

so, i am not the best person to ask, re: a comparison of magnepans to any speakers, as i'm not a fan of the magnepan sound. but, i do know enuff about how maggies sound to know that they need a really big room to sound the way they're supposed to sound - they will really not sound good (imo) in small room such as yours..

so, for my personal tastes, even if i had a 20x30 room, or bigger, i would always choose the newform 645r's over *any* magnepan speaker.

there is only one speaker w/a non-conventional direct radiation pattern that i've hear that i really like, & that is the original ohm walsh. i haven't heard their recent offerings, & i haven't heard other speakers using this technology, (huff & german physiks come to mind), but these seem to be able to do amazing soundstaging *and* still maintain excellent focus. again, i'd think these need a bigger room to really be at their best.

hth,

doug s.

Horizons · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 06:20 pm »

It depends on what you DON't like about the Maggies. I am a Maggie junkie but I do agree that your room is a little small for the 3.6.

It's just hard to find an audiophile that doesn't at least respect the 3.6.

I have heard the Newform and was not very impressed. I thought it sounded thin and bright compared to my 1.6QRs. However, another audiophool might say that my maggies sound too warm and full. ANY ribbon speaker like the Newforms sound best at a distance. You might also consider the BG ribbons (520DX). No question, the Newforms are easier to integrate into smaller rooms though...

doug s. · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 06:33 pm »

Quote from: Horizons

It depends on what you DON't like about the Maggies. I am a Maggie junkie but I do agree that your room is a little small for the 3.6.

It's just hard to find an audiophile that doesn't at least respect the 3.6.

I have heard the Newform and was not very impressed. I thought it sounded thin and bright compared to my 1.6QRs. However, another audiophool might say that my maggies sound too warm and full. ANY ribbon speaker like the Newforms sound best at a distance. You might also consider the BG ribbons (520DX). No question, the Newforms are easier to integrate into smaller rooms though...

thin & bright is the *last* description i'd have for newforms. *extremely* neutral, imo.

i never found maggies too warm & full, i yust don't like their soundstaging - too overdone & too diffuse for my liking.

ymmv,

doug s.

Lord_Magnepan · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 06:45 pm »

Thats the thing that drives me mad. They are big but not ver precise. I like to have a "rendered" image, the Maggies dont do that. I am going to try the NewForms. I am very interested in hearing Mr. Meyers all digital solution too.

doug s. · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 07:10 pm »

Quote from: Lord_Magnepan

Thats the thing that drives me mad. They are big but not ver precise. I like to have a "rendered" image, the Maggies dont do that. I am going to try the NewForms. I am very interested in hearing Mr. Meyers all digital solution too.

imo, you will find this a characteristic of the maggie sound even in a properly huge room. while there are certainly other options than newforms, i think you will like them. personally, i'd think they could be made better w/a custom kit that places the woofers at the center of the ribbons - ie: a lot higher. but, even as-is, they are really nice, prowided yure far-enuff back...

doug s.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 09:09 pm »

Lord_Magnepan, Well "rendered" images with precise placement within the soundstage and di-polar or bi-polar radiation patterns are mutally exclusive to
one to another. The radiation pattern of this type of speaker has a very large number of early reflections and energizes the room acoustics to a larger degree than a direct radiating loudspeaker. The end result is the loss of image specificity which you noticed with the "maggies'. A large baffle
low distorion multi-way loudspeaker can produce an image scale similar to the 3.5Rs with excellent image focus akin to a mini-monitor. The speakers
I am currently using in my system do this. Good luck with your quest,Scotty

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 02:34 am »

_scotty_.....I luv' your posts.

I've learned a lot of things the past 2 years here, but your posts always resonate with me with information that I can comprehend and use.

My thanks

_scotty_ · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 03:35 am »

You are welcome.

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 04:07 am »

Quote from: _scotty_

The radiation pattern of this type of speaker has a very large number of early reflections and energizes the room acoustics to a larger degree than a direct radiating loudspeaker.

Not so.

the radiation pattern of a Dipole speaker is in the shape of a figure 8

8

Dipoles actually excite LESS room modes:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_promotion.htm

Magnepans also radiate sound similar to line array so they don't have reflections from the floor or ceiling like typical point-source speakers do.

I have heard Magnepans do well with placement of instruments and imaging. I think they lack when it comes to depth of image if you don't have them in the proper room. I think if they are too close to the back wall, then you get too much reflected sound, too soon which smears the imaging. I've heard them in larger more open rooms and am floored by the imaging though it isn't pinpoint or brutally accurate...it is fairly natural and lifelike though.

I wouldn't use large maggies in a small room. It's just too hard to get them placed correctly to do EVERYTHING right. I did have 1.6's in a 16'x12' room and they sounded very good but depth was lost as they were still too close to the rear wall. I liked them out at least 5'-6' which just wasn't going to happen in such tight quarters (at least not with the wife staying around for long...at least she married me when I had 1.6's so I know what is possible with her).

perhaps you might be interested in a standard line array like those from GR Research, Selah Audio, Wisdom Audio etc...

Marbles · « **Reply #12 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 04:31 am »

I am really curious how a BG line array and a pair of subwoofers that can be high passed at like 250 hz would sound.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=135#neo

_scotty_ · « **Reply #13 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 08:38 am »

heavystarch, while it is true that room nodes are not as effectively energized
below the wavelength that is equal to or greater than the width of the mounting baffle of the driver due to progressive phase cancellation the dipole still radiates twice the energy into the room that a monpole does and some of it hits the walls near the speaker. These early reflections and the
generally higher ratio of reflected vs direct sound that reaches the listener
leads to more a amorphous image in the soundstage.
The room at frequencies above approximately 200hz is more strongly energized by the dipole because these frequencies are not as subject to cancellation due to the shorter wavelength involved. Unpredictable comb- filter effects also modify the frequency response of the dipole and this may also
contribute to the percieved problem.
As a former owner of a pair of MG3As I am very familiar with what
Lord_Magnepan is griping about.
The excellent information at the linkwitzlab site needs to be read by more people. It very throughly explains the problems encountered in trying to reproduce sub 200Hz frequencies in a typical listening room.
See link http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm
See also the link to the discussion of direct vs reverberant energy created in a room by a dipole radiator. http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm
In particular read the section on Schroeder Frequency
There are tradeoffs involved in any speaker design and Lord_Magnepan
and I don't care for the ones that result from a dipolar design.
With higher resolution playback equipement it is now possible to recover the real ambient information that may exist on a recording rather relying
on the reverbrant field generated by a dipole speaker to fill in what used to go missing and unreproduced in the listening room. The dipole's past advantage in its ability to create a reverberant field has now turned into a liability because this same reverberant field now obscures information.
It was the realization that I was losing information to this effect that convinced me I needed to sell my "maggies" and try something different.
Scotty

NealH · « **Reply #14 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 09:43 pm »

Good informtion scotty. I always liked Linkwitz and his work. The best system I ever heard was the Beethovens properly set up (in a large room). It will be forever ingrained in my mind. That pair of Beethovens is still for sale last time I checked. I live just down the road from Tom Hoffman and he was the marketing man behind Audio Artistry. If those speakers weren't so expensive they would be in my house.

By the way, tell us about those Reimers Tetons. I have read good things about them on Audiogon. Give us a couple comments in regards to soundstaging and immediacy. I like a speaker where I feel that I can just reach out and touch the artist. From past experience, I tend to shy from large multi-driver box speakers. But, this experiencee dates back many years ago so it could very well be irrelevent now. To be honest, I like the looks of Reimers.

rosconey · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 09:51 pm »

spend a buck and call rick craig-he will try to do what ever you want and make it work

good guy to deal with

Red Dragon Audio · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 11:13 pm »

_Scotty_

Good points and certainly see/heard your dilema.

Some things I did to reduce the rear wave information becoming too distracting was to obviously damp/treat the wall behind the panels and to the center of the speakers...this lessened the rear wave high/mid frequency info from interfereing as much with the directly radiated sound. Did a good job too with helping the sound to become a bit more focused and precise though the maggies still have a more homogenized sound...

I sold my maggies as well for some of the same reasons...mostly asthetic but I very much liked the holographic presentation of a pair of De Capos my friend had so I bought a pair of those to replace the 1.6's. I tend to live with a speaker for a year or two before I get the feeling I need to sell.

_scotty_ · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 12:31 am »

rnhood, They do immediacy very well. The images are very palpable and three dimensional. The soundstage is as large as all outdoors in my room
with images frequently appearing 6ft. or more outside the speakers. Image height
is also consistent with what should be heard from the recording and quite realistic.
If the artist was properly miked they will put them in the room with you.
To a large degree they are chamelon like. They really only reproduce what you put into them and accurately reflect what is happening upstream with sources,cabling and amplification. They also pull a very impressive disappearing act.
Hope this info was useful, Scotty

Lord_Magnepan · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 12:48 am »

Hello guys. I have found a buyer for mt 3.6R and will go with the NewForms. But there is one thing on my mind. Should i keep the Krell + Jolida combo or should i try the "all digital" solution from Mr. Meyer ? Has anyone heard that yet?

Thanks for all the great responses

Florian

NealH · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 01:27 am »

I have thought about that too Flo. Not having read many comments from owners on the all digital solution, I believe I would take John Meyer's recommmendation. Certainly he has experience with many amplifier configuration topologies driving the Newforms and, I don't think he will lead you wrong. Although, after reading his website I pretty much have no doubt that he will favor the all digital path.

Come to think of it, it may be possible that the digital electronics are also provided on a 30-day trial. If so then you can keep the Krell and Jolida until you try it both ways.

Scotty - thanks much for your comments.