[mcrespo71]

I'm using a Rega EAR and the HD580's are super refined, but sound kind of veiled and lacking in engagement compared to my Grado SR60's.  WTF?????  I was checking the Grado's out on the Rega to see how efficient they were (very efficient BTW) and was blown by how much more engaging they are.  Is this just a house sound difference between Senn and Grado?  If this is the case, man, I'm selling these Senn's and getting a more expensive pair of Grado's.  Any suggestions on best value grado's?

Michael

[Tyson]

It's a house sound difference.  One thing to try is remove the foam covering inside the earcups of the 580's, bye bye veil.

Also, the SR 225 is the best sound/value of the grado line, IMO.  Avoide the RS-2 and RS-1, too bassy and lacking in energy, IMO, especially if you like the sound of the 60's or 80's.

[mcrespo71]

Thanks, Tyson.  I'll try removing the foam on the inside of the Senns.  Is there a particular way to do it right?  The HD580's do many things right, especially for classical- have a much bigger stage and nice liquidity, but there is no doubt they are truncating the leading edge and decays of notes in comparison to the Grado's.  I'd actually like to keep the Senn's if I can get rid of the veil and buy some better Grado's (then I'll have two cans with different priorities that cover a larger palette of music- kind of like those that try to build two systems- but much cheaper ).  I've always just used the SR60's for my discman on the subway, but I'm surprised how good they are hooked up to my main rig.  I'll take your advice on the SR225's and give them a listen here in NYC.

Michael

[mcrespo71]

Thanks for the tip, Tyson!

It worked in removing the veil and making them more transparent, but the Sennheiser house sound remains.  No problem, it's a great house sound for particular things.  I'm going to listen to the Grado SR225's next week and will make a decision.  Thanks for the tips.

Michael

[Tyson]

No problem!  Let me know what you think of the 225's

[Ravi]

Michael, even though I've never heard the 580's personally, looking at their frequency response, they are definately voiced with a BBC dip.

The response continues to fall as frequencies go up, and there is a huge 15 - 20db dip above 10khz, the area where a lot of air and openness comes from (essentially, this is mostly all the 10khz plus sounds like).  So, what you're hearing cannot be corrected.  Might want to try the Beyer DT990 pro or 770 pro, they are the exact opposite, they have large spikes in the 10khz + range.  They would likely sound quite a bit more exciting.  The Grado's are voiced quite well, and should sound quite detailed.

[nakmaniak]

Imho Grados sound a bit too bright compared to real speakers, while 580 more or less 'got it right'.

[ooheadsoo]

I hated the 225 the one time I listened to it, but it comes down to taste.  From what I remember, I would like my long gone pair of SR-80's more than the 225.  The HP1 was a different story, but hard to get your hands on.  Problem is that you can't try the HP1 before buying.  If you visit head-fi.org, there may be a headphone meet near you.  That would be the best place to try many different headphones and amps.

[CSMR]

I haven't tried grados. I found my HD580s VERY inadequate for classical music. Now with my AKG K501s I am much happier.

[DanaA]

I like my Senn's much more for classical than my Grados.

It may be that your Senns aren't broken in yet.  My Grados sounded a lot better out of the box than my Senns.

Or that you aren't driving the Senns with a power amp.

Or that your ears haven't yet adjusted to the Senn sound.  As weird as it sounds, I strongly believe that we have to readjust our listening if enough of a sonic difference is there.

Or that the Senn signature sound just isn't your cup of tea.

I'd think it most likely is the last thing I listed.  The wonderful thing about having alternatives is that we can more adequately customize the sound to our particular tastes.

[TheChairGuy]

Mike,

I cut a nickel sized opening in the middle of my Grado SR60 pads (where the 'speakers' are) and that, too, lifted a veil away in an otherwise oustanding performance for $69 - I've always found.

Use an exacto knife and trim carefully.  Leave enough padding on the outside as the Grado's, as you know, ain't too comfy to begin with.

I also judiciously used some thin strips of constrained layer damping on the outside ear cups to reduce resonance....it helped more than harmed in most ways.   I never sought out another headphone after these tweeks - I own a canalphone from Westone I use for plane travel.

[hubcaps]

It's definitely a matter of taste.  I've owned sr-125 and now own the hd580.  I was initially impressed with the hd580 because I could listen to them for hours and not get any fatigue, which I got with the sr-125.  However, I am getting a little bit bored with them.  If I had the money, I would get a pair of both.  The senn just doesn't do it for me with rock music.

[CSMR]

I like my Senn's much more for classical than my Grados.

It may be that your Senns aren't broken in yet.  My Grados sounded a lot better out of the box than my Senns.

Or that you aren't driving the Senns with a power amp.

Or that your ears haven't yet adjusted to the Senn sound.  As weird as it sounds, I strongly believe that we have to readjust our listening if enough of a sonic difference is there.

Or that the Senn signature sound just isn't your cup of tea.

I'd think it most likely is the last thing I listed. The wonderful thing about having alternatives is that we can more adequately customize the sound to our particular tastes.

Yup, it is the last thing. To a certain degree it is a matter of sonic tastes, to a greater degree a matter of musical tastes (genre). IMO. Maybe Grados would be even worse for me than Sennheisers - I haven't heard them. They have exaggerated bass, people say.

[NotoriousBIG_PJ]

I find removing the foam from the 580's makes them much too harsh for my ears. Same for the sr60's. Sometimes a veil is there for a reason heh.

Biggie.

[EMM801]

I can talk about the Senn 580's, being a long term owner. All removing the foam will do is add diffraction artifacts from the housing. Since the Sennheiser housing was not part of the original acoustic event, any contribution it makes is, by definition, wrong. Deliberately introducing colorations to counter other colorations is a slippery slope. I would expect that you might just plain be happier with a different headphone. I like my 580's a lot- BUT:

They are somewhat of a difficult load. I have used mine on everything from my Mac to the HP jack on my Van Alstine integrated amp. Possibly as a result, your satisfaction with them will depend not only on your taste in sound but on driving source. If you like a 'zippy' high end something else is likely to  be a better choice. I am in my late 40s and realistically probably don't have enough HF range anymore to worry too much about performance at very high frequencies anyway.
I have heard the Grado SR225's and liked their sound- for the two minutes I was able to tolerate wearing them. For me, comfort takes equal footing with sound (ie, I gotta have both). I have never heard a pair of AKG's that I recall.

Bottom line on Grado vs Sennheiser IMHO:
Sound, a matter of taste. Comfort, a complete wipeout in favor of the Sennheisers. I suspect even some Grado devotees would have to grudgingly admit that those phones lose the comfort comparison badly. This may be because they have fewer design options- their parts designed to be producible using machinery that fits in a basement- which is exactly where they ARE produced.

[BrunoB]

I have a ten years old HD580 that I haven't  used for many years. I have been using it again for a few months. To my ears, the sound is slow  and not detailed (when compared to my ribbon speakers). Bass lacks detail and depth.  The inside  foam  is gone . I wonder if my  headphones are just too old or if my expectations are too high? Would another brand sound faster (e.g. electrostatic headphones)?

Thanks,

Bruno

[Russell Dawkins]

I haven't heard the 580s, but I have heard the 600s and 650s.

When I record on location I monitor with my Etymotic research ER4Ss. Apart from rolled off (but still present) deep bass, there is very little difference between what I hear on the ER4Ss and the source, i.e. real musicians in the room or hall I am recording in.

There is a huge difference with the Sennheisers - when I first heard them under the same circumstances (comparing them to the real thing at a recording session) I was shocked at how much the highs were rolled off. I would never dare use them for critical evaluations of my sound.
To me they represent one of the more extreme examples of euphonic colouration designed to make edgy recordings listenable.

Russell

[Russell Dawkins]

I should add that the only circumaural headphones I have found that compares in naturalness to the Etymotic ER4S are the AKG 240DF which are, unfortunately, hard to drive, being 600? impedence.
For the use for which the Sennheiser 650 is intended, I prefer the AKG 501 which has a normal impedence and can be driven by anything. It is large but light and gives lots of space around the ear, not to speak of being 2/3 the price of the 650.
The bass on the 240DF is light by contemporary over-blown standards, but at least it sounds real and the distortion levels are audibly lower than any other circumaural with which I am familiar.
By the way, the suffix "DF" refers to diffuse field, where an attempt is made to simulate the sound of monitors in the diffuse field to aid the engineer in making a corelation between what he is hearing and the way it would sound on speakers.

http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,186,id,253,pid,253,_language,EN.html

http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,186,id,255,pid,255,_language,EN.html

Russell

[ooheadsoo]

Russell, how would you compare the 501 and the 240df?  If the 240df reproduce the live sound so well, why would you choose the 501 for normal listening?  I understand that the 501 would be unsuited for monitoring on site because it is an open design and it is likely more comfortable than the 240df if my experience with the 240s is any indication ()

[Russell Dawkins]

To my ears, the 501 is a little scooped in the mids and has a gentle bass lift and a little more distortion, only perceptible in direct comparison to 240DFs or ER4s. The 240 DFs are really fussy about what they're plugged in to and simply won't go loud enough for many situations when plugged in to a normal headphone preamps such as the chip-based preamps found in the average piece of gear. Note that the 240DF is semi-open, as well.
The 501s have a smiley face EQ built in, but it's subtle and does relate quite well to the average good home hi-fi. The point is, if a client likes what he hears on playback at the session, he's not going to be disappointed later. They are a little flattering, but fun, and they are not fussy about what is driving them.
I don't own a pair, but I confidently recommend them to friends. As far as that goes, I don't own 240DFs, either, but only because I don't really need them as much as I need other things. I do have 240 Studios, though which are a bit like the 501s but have more of an HF rise. I bought them thinking they were like 240DFs but with a more normal impedence, but after a few days had the oportunity to compare with the DFs and found I could actually hear the higher distortion that is shown in AKGs technical specs on the two models. The 240 Studios or 501s are not distorted by any other standard than comparison with 240 DFs.
By the way, I would not monitor on location with any other than the Etymotic ER4s. Even the best closed back headphone I have heard has too much leakage. I am spoiled by the 25dB of attenuation. I can also put shooters' ear protecters over these and get another 25-30dB of ambient attenuation. 50-55dB is almost total which means I can walk, with a long pair of extension cords, into an orchestra while they are playing and set a spot mic (with that input soloed) and really hear where the mic sounds best.