JVC F10 Break-in - Is it supposed to be this bad??

JohnnyLightOn · « **on:** 27 Jan 2005, 05:25 am »

Hi All,

I read every post I could find on the JVC F10 and then bought one. It came yesterday, and is literally unlistenable. Maybe someone can tell me if this is normal or if I've got a broken receiver.

It replaced an 18 year old Yamaha A1000 integrated 120W amp. The front end is a Squeezebox fed by a hard disk with lossless files. The speakers are B&W Matrix 3 Series 2, which are 4 ohm, 90db, 3-way bass reflexes. (Not the three-section B&Ws, though, these are rectangular boxes.) That system sounded rich and full, but it was wooly and missing a lot of detail. My goal was to use the F10 as my amp, get a good external DAC for the Squeezebox, and make some decent speaker cables and a power conditioner.

I have 16 hours so far on this F10, and here's what it sounds like: there's almost no bass or lower mids. This highs are nice and crisp and open and airy, but with little bass and lower mids it doesn't sound like much. With any kind of rock or pop, the musical accompaniment is half-OK, but the vocals are so recessed it sounds like someone turned off the singers' microphones. I can't figure out how it's possible this amp is playing the music but not the vocals.

This is on the DVD-Multi input, with the Squeezebox's analog outs going to the DVD Left and Right input on the lower tier of inputs. I tried putting them into the Left and Right Surround inputs on the upper tier, but got no sound that way.

If I use the Squeezebox's digital coax out into the F10's coax digital input, the sound gets louder and much fuller, but it's still terrible.

Using the included FM antenna I can't pull in a very clear signal on any channel, but the same phenomenon is happening: the music comes through, fuller than the Multi input, but the vocals are almost nonexistant.

I have the front speakers set to Large, the other speakers set to none, and the input set to Multi. My speaker cables are old Monster cables, one pair terminated into little plugs that fits into the spring input on the F10, and one pair that I had to jam the tip of into the spring clips. I have tried switching the leads to see if it was wired out of phase; that turned out to not be the problem.

Do I just need to keep breaking this thing in? Or is it broken? Or is it simply unable to drive my speakers? Thanks for any help!!

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #1 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 05:34 am »

If you're not exaggerating things, it sounds busted.

JohnnyLightOn · « **Reply #2 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 05:52 am »

Damn...that's what I was afraid of. I'm definitely not exaggerating.

This thing is probably going back for an exchange tomorrow. It sucks to be excited about getting a piece of equipment only to have to send it back!

JohnnyLightOn · « **Reply #3 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 04:39 pm »

Thanks, ooheadsoo. For anyone obsessively following all things F10, here are the current details:

I called JR Music this morning and they were very cool. They had my account record already in front of them just based on the phone number I called from. They did ask me to first call JVC customer service to make sure I didn't have something set wrong on the receiver. The JVC woman sounded annoyed throughout the entire 10 minute call. Finally she decided the receiver was broken, based on the fact that FM had the same sound signature as the other inputs. At one point she asked me twice to make sure I had set the unit to analog and not digital when it was playing FM. She was focusing on the concept that a surround sound receiver might separate out the vocals and bass for several speakers, while I am using only two. She wanted to make sure Surround was turned off. I actually think that this is what could be affecting the sound, but it's something broken inside the unit that I can't change. I called JR back and they shipped out another unit by the same 2-day method I paid for before, and are sending me a prepaid return UPS shipping label for my current unit. They charged my credit card again to cross-ship, but will credit me upon return of my old unit. So the only effect on me is that I'm delayed 6 days.

I will post an update after I receive the new unit.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 03:32 am »

Sounds like good service, and I suspected something funky like that. Sorry to hear you're out the 6 days.

bilbobaggins · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 05:29 pm »

It's possible there's nothing wrong with the JVC because your B&W's are known to be a difficult load. Have you tried them with any other speakers?

Horizons · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Jan 2005, 06:10 pm »

It has to be broken.

I took the JVC out of the box, connected via DVD/Multi directly to my 4 ohm Maggie 1.6QR and it sounded very, very good immediately. It has smoothed out a little over breakin but it never sounded as you described it. I guess it could sound that poor with the wrong speakers but I seriously doubt it.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 02:14 am »

Yeah...B&W hard load, what? Try the maggies.

I'm starting to think that B&W speakers just sound really bad except with a few particular amps...

Neild · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Jan 2005, 11:24 pm »

Quote from: ooheadsoo

Yeah...B&W hard load, what? Try the maggies.

I'm starting to think that B&W speakers just sound really bad except with a few particular amps...

I use B&W bookshelves with a Panasonic amp that some rehashers say can't drive difficult speakers.

Not saying it was the case with your JVC but the symptoms you describe are consistent with bad config settings or bad wiring. I was called to deal with a similar situation once and at first I was confused about why the sound was so wacky until I found the speaker wiring was flaky. Change to the speaker wiring and all was well.

TIC · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 12:02 am »

The way you describe it, it sounds like you have something set for a 5.1 DSP, but are only running 2 speakers. What you describe is exactly what you would get if you were sending signal to 5 channels and a sub, but didn't have the center or sub connected. Because the low freq. signal is sent to the LFE/sub out, you won't have any low bass and because vocals are sent primarily to the center speaker, you're only getting what bleeds over to the L&R front speakers.

Make sure you are not set up for a DSP mode that is sending output to multi-speaker setup.

FYI, I don't know this particular receiver, but this would be the same symptom on any HT/multichannel receiver if you only had 2 speakers attached, but were in a multi-channel output mode.

Enjoy,

TIC

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 12:32 am »

The JVC doesn't do that unless you were using the discrete inputs with all the channels hooked up. I.E., you have your multichannel sacd player hooked up with all 5.1 channels. In that case, this would properly happen. However, if you have only L and R channels hooked up, even multichannel mode wouldn't do what is going on. A DSP might but Johnny apparently doesn't have any activated and can't turn any off.

JohnnyLightOn · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 02:26 am »

Thanks for the addtional posts, everyone.

I agree that this is the sound I would get if I were running only 2 speakers on a 5.1 setup. But I tried every setting on this amp three times trying to fix it, and there was nothing I could do. The DVD-Multi channel on this amp bypasses any DSP, which is why it's the only really good part of the amp. Once you're on DVD-Multi, there's nothing you can really set. I did make sure the receiver knew I didn't have other speakers besides front left and front right, however, by setting them to None.

The replacement is coming on Monday, and I will post again on Monday night how it sounds. Hopefully it will be a different animal!

Neild · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 09:10 am »

Quote from: TIC

The way you describe it, it sounds like you have something set for a 5.1 DSP, but are only running 2 speakers. What you describe is exactly what you would get if you were sending signal to 5 channels and a sub, but didn't have the center or sub connected. Because the low freq. signal is sent to the LFE/sub out, you won't have any low bass and because vocals are sent primarily to the center speaker, you're only getting what bleeds over to the L&R front speakers.

Make sure you are not set up for a DSP mode ...

Are you sure there isn't some setting that is causing the amp to want to route through a DSP? Perhaps some inocuous setting that you wouldn't think would, but does? Like say subwoofer to ON or bass-boost ON or center focus ON? All it would take is one little setting like that to cause the effect you're describing. If you have any other speakers around try hooking up a center and I bet you'll hear all the missing sounds.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Jan 2005, 10:24 am »

I have the predecessor receiver and have fooled around with the menus on the F10. There's no such feature I'm aware of. It autodetects if you have other speakers hooked up. I'm sure the JVC rep would have thought of that on the phone as well before issuing an RMA.

Neild · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Jan 2005, 02:24 am »

Quote from: ooheadsoo

I have the predecessor receiver and have fooled around with the menus on the F10. There's no such feature I'm aware of. It autodetects if you have other speakers hooked up. I'm sure the JVC rep would have thought of that on the phone as well before issuing an RMA.

You have more faith than I in the first tier phone answering support. Did you try hooking up a center speaker yet?

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Jan 2005, 02:28 am »

The issue isn't whether or not the voices are routing through the center. The problem is that he has done nothing to make it so. I don't know of any such feature in the receiver that would cause that problem.

If they authorized the RMA, i doubt it was "first tier," come to think of it.

Neild · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Jan 2005, 10:28 pm »

Well we should know pretty quick when the replacement shows up, or alternatively if someone that has the JVC were to disconnect all but their 2 front channels speakers and test it out.

JohnnyLightOn · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 Jan 2005, 10:38 pm »

The replacement unit is now playing, and it turns out that...ooheadsoo was right. My first unit was defective. But all the theories presented were good, and well worth mentioning. Many thanks for them.

The new amp now sounds like an amp. Just one that can use some break-in. Using the same settings as before, there are now vocals and bass. And, interestingly, the FM section works now. The first unit could hardly pull in a single station. The new one could use a better antenna, but it works OK with the wire it comes with. It pulls in all my stations, but most are a little bit fuzzy with the included antenna. As one poster said before, the remote is idiotically designed to require opening the slide to change presets, as opposed to using the main buttons that are currently assigned to tuning. Whoever came up with this doesn't listen to more than one radio station (or no radio at all). But I can live with it.

I'm really looking forward to the highs smoothing out, and hopefully the midrange becoming fuller and sweeter. Even out of the box, I think this amp is showing me the rest of my system in a way that I haven't heard before, so there will be some changes coming. My Yamaha gave me tons of warm, full, wooly bass, and the JVC feels decidely lean on bass--that is, until I play some well-recorded music. Then it just sounds "right." This amp is much more transparent than the Yamaha. The Yamaha had more power to drive my speakers, but the F10 will go loud enough for my current use. I'm hoping that as it breaks in it will sound better when it's loud. If it turn it up just loud enough to try my neighbors' patience, it seems to lose some of its drive. (Please keep in mind that my speakers are 4 ohm, which is out of this receiver's spec, and that they may not be easy to drive.)

For the record, JVC didn't issue the RMA. It was my vendor, J&R Music (www.JR.com). They didn't require me to call JVC first, but did ask me nicely to. They took my word that I had called JVC and that JVC agreed that my unit was broken. They apologized twice for sending me a defective receiver. They shipped both units fast. After this transaction, I will definitely buy from them again. They're a great company.

I will post again after my F10 has broken in more and I have a better idea of its true sound.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 Jan 2005, 10:40 pm »

Good deal! I'm glad to see it's worked out for you.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Feb 2005, 03:58 am »

Your 4 ohm speakers have met their cheapo ultimate match...give it a total of 300 hours and you'll be smiling. Give it some real power conditioning and you'll wonder fo your reached the Holy Grail of amplification for $250.00.

I didn't find that the F10 needed the full 300 hours to reach it's character -you pretty much got a sense of it right out of the box, but it does improve in time. The ES1sl, it's predesessor, really required the full 300 hours to realize it's potential. Don't know why, that's just what I found.

Enjoy - great to hear your amp trouble are behind you.