Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.

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David Ellis

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« on: 23 Jan 2005, 04:26 am »
This post follows my previous post about the 8" drivers I have tested and used in the past 2-3 years.  The focus of this post will be on musical content and chosing the appropriate loudspeaker.  I really think that I have some keen insight here.

First, when listening to classical symphony recordings, there is a plethora of detail.  In fact, I think it's fair to describe such music as ALL detail.  Quite often there is no bold simple instrument or vocalist to follow in such recordings.  In these most frequent cases there is copious layering within the music the possibility for inner detail is profound!  Inner detail imbues classical music.

Matters are very different for pop music - even jazz.  Such music is generally led by a single vocalist or instrument.  The presence of this instrument is projected with good spl, and there really isn't much happening in the backround.  In a worst-case scenario, there are 3-5 instruments in the backround.  And even if these instruments are active, their input doesn't need to have detail because the listeners enjoyment comes completely from tracking the melody.  

My assertion is - with classical music enjoyment necessitates a high resolution loudspeaker.  With pop music enjoyment necessitates the ability for the listener to follow the melody.  This is true for me.

My favorite CD in the workshop is by Phillips, Craig & Dean.  While these guys are great musicians, the recording doesn't have anything complex in the background.  The 1801 gets all the details of this music, but I enjoy this music equally well on the Meniscus 838 and SEAS H1212 tweeter.  I simply don't need the 1801 resolution for my enjoyment.  I believe this flows directly from the type of music in my system.  Simple music with simple harmony/melody is fine on a lower resolution speaker.

The only caviat I might offer in this matter is that the Meniscus 838 and SEAS H1212 really have better deep bass than the 1801.  If the 1801 had a 10" woofer on the bottom my subjective position might be slightly different.

What do you gents think?

Also, I jammed my thumb at the gym yesterday.  Hence, the workshop today would be a 1-handed activitiy.  Keyboard time feels like good therapy.

Al Garay

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jan 2005, 07:28 am »
I guess I hope you jam your finger more frequently. Your keyboard therapy makes good reading and educational.

What size box would you need for 2 sealed woofers with two of the 8" Meniscus woofers per side? I'm currently using two SCC300s in 2.5 cf enclosures per side, towers for the 1801s. Not getting the output when I had a single SCC300 in a 4 cf sealed box. But the smaller units are not overloading my room and causing spousal tension.

Hope your finger feels better.

Al

David Ellis

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #2 on: 23 Jan 2005, 01:40 pm »
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I guess I hope you jam your finger more frequently. Your keyboard therapy makes good reading and educational.


 :lol:  I appreciate you sentiment, but it doesn't help me get anything accomplished in the workshop.

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What size box would you need for 2 sealed woofers with two of the 8" Meniscus woofers per side?


3'-4' ported would work fine.  Hmmm, some explanation should follow.  What happens with multiple smaller drivers is their VAS stacks.  The VAS is essentially the volume of Air equal to driver compliance.  All things else being equal, 2 woofers having VAS 50 liters will require the same cabinet as 1 woofer having VAS 100 liters.  

Reducing the sensitivity of a driver will also reduce the cabinet size.  All things else being equal for every 3db of sensitivity reduction the cabinet size should be halved.  For every 3db of sensitivity increase the cabinet size should be doubled.

Compromises...

Also, I recommend you don't remove your SCC300's and replace them with Meniscus 8" units.

Sincerely,

Dave

hubert

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music preference and speaker choice
« Reply #3 on: 3 Feb 2005, 12:32 am »
Hello Dave and all,

Dave wrote:
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with classical music...enjoyment necessitates high resolution...with pop music...necessitates...to follow the melody


Just my opinion: In other words: Classical symphonic music  :violin: haves real dynamic, pop :drums:  don't.   IMO, real dynamic (level differences between slight spl sounds) necessitates high resolution systems; in 3 words: NO intermodulation distortion :nono: .
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If the 1801 had a 10" woofer on the bottom, my subjective opinion might be slightly different

Why different :?: Does deeper bass help to follow the melody?
 :beer: : this is an elsassian emoticon (good beer and good wine in elsass)
I go :sleep:

DSK

Re: Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #4 on: 3 Feb 2005, 01:20 am »
Quote from: David Ellis
My assertion is - with classical music enjoyment necessitates a high resolution loudspeaker. With pop music enjoyment necessitates the ability for the listener to follow the melody. This is true for me.
...


You might have something here Dave. Perhaps this is why we can readily enjoy pop music on boom boxes but not classical so much.

David Ellis

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #5 on: 3 Feb 2005, 08:50 pm »
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NO intermodulation distortion


Yep, this is certainly one factor, however it's not the only thing.  There are many forms of distortion in loudspeaker.  Avoiding IMD helps, but there are other issues too.  I have learned that unloading a good paper midrange with a woofer doesn't do magic.  That paper midrange will still lack resolution compared to the W18 midwoofer.  

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Why different  Does deeper bass help to follow the melody?


Hm, I don't think so.  I just think deeper bass with better bass authority is fun  8)  .  I am certainly not a head-banger, but do apprecaite good bass with pop recordings.

stvnharr

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #6 on: 5 Feb 2005, 10:46 pm »
Dave, I think your comments per classical music and pop music are quite correct.  And the ramifications of this extend to one’s audio system and how we all tend to listen to music.
Classical music may be “detail” in an audio sense, but it is also just the combination of instruments all providing needed musical sound to the whole of the music composition.   The acoustic quality of the instruments seems to me to give much of the “detail” of the sound.   The sound is balanced mostly by the addition of instruments in the parts.
Popular music is mostly just melody/solo, and background accompaniment.   The instruments are mostly electronic, or acoustic with electronic pickup/mike.  The sound is balanced by electronic manipulation.  “Detail” is not the same as in classical music.  Details here are little tinkly notes made by percussive instruments or sounds from close miking.
Classical music tends to make one really listen to EVERYTHING, for the fullest enjoyment.   And to enjoy to the fullest extent, one needs an audio system that can play back ALL the music in a natural sound.  It’s easy to hear, if say, a violin is not played back in a natural sound.  A music system needs to be fast responding and capable of as much low level detail as possible.  The highest quality electronics and the finest speaker drivers really do all this the best.  Of course terms like “highest quality” and “finest” are quite subjective matters.
Popular music really does just require one to listen to the melody/solo parts and not pay much attention to the rest.  The non acoustic nature of the musical sound is more forgiving of a less than natural sound in the playback. This sets an easier standard for the audio system.  
AND, it also lets the listener not pay such strict attention, and the music can just be background music for other activities.  And I think this is how many people tend to enjoy their music, even if they have a nice home audio system.

David Ellis

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #7 on: 8 Feb 2005, 04:45 am »
I recently received this comment via email.

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My impressions are generally favorable, with some lingering doubts. Some of it may boil down to a philosophical issue: is a speaker that is totally accurate a good thing, given that most CDs are not perfectly recorded? Certainly it's better in objective terms, but I'm so sure that's true in subjective terms? Maybe I need to have Jack Nicholson shout at me, "The truth? The truth? You can't handle the truth!" :-)


This is funny, but true :lol:

Certainly I continue to maintain that some good paper cones and $25 soft sounding ferrofluid tweeters are extremely adequate for anyone listening to Home Theater source material.  I believe this is also true for folks who enjoy 1970s rock-n-roll.  

Per the comments above from myself, and Steve Harrison, I think good resolution in any product may not be appreciated, and in some circumstances may not be enjoyable.  In this regard, Jack Nicholson's works are very true.   Sometimes the truth is too difficult.  

I must admit that I always listen to HT source material on the 1801s, and sometimes listen to contemporary Christian music.  I also must admit that I NEVER listen to any mediocre recordings of old Rock-n-Roll.  I have some Free "Alright Now", some Emotions, and some other pop material, but it always fails to satisfy.  The thin/gritty character of these recordings is always clearly obvious on the 1801s.  However, on some other speakers with less resolution, this music is quite nice in the backround.

Also, IMO less than 1% of CDs are well recorded.

Ron Stewart

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Music Preference and Speaker Choice - my 2c.
« Reply #8 on: 16 Feb 2005, 12:56 am »
By way of introduction, I'm the guy who sent Dave the email (about my recently completed 1801F's) referencing Jack Nicholson's line, "You can't handle the truth!" from the movie A Few Good Men.

I'd like to share a slightly different point of view. It's more philosophical than technical, so stop reading now if you can't tolerate that sort of thing. It's also really long...

Dave, you didn't state outright that high resolution equates to high quality, but that seems to be the implication. If I'm wrong about that, much of what I'm about to say is probably off the mark.

If I follow you, you seem to make three points. (1) High-quality recordings of symphony orchestras require a high-resolution (high-quality) speaker. (2) Pop recordings (presumably, even high-quality ones) don't really require a quality speaker. (3) Further, you can't enjoy mediocre-quality pop recordings, or 70's rock, on a high-quality speaker like the 1801.

It's hard to argue your first point. There is a lot going on (lots of detail) on when an orchestra plays, and it does take a quality stereo system to reproduce all of it. Interestingly, though, the thing I notice when I hear an orchestra or jazz band play live is not the amount of detail present, but the amazing dynamics, and the wall of sound produced. Orchestras/bands can go from very quiet to very loud in a heartbeat, very effortlessly. They go from a "whisper to a scream" as opposed to a typical rock band's "bellow to a roar."

I start to part company with you on the second point. There's a huge spectrum of music between a full-blown orchestra and a small pop group. I contend that any well-recorded music, complex or simple, high detail or low, is worthy of high-quality reproduction. For example, I think Mary Black's or Loreena McKennitt's voice, or Patty Larkin's guitar is just as worthy as Yo-Yo Ma's cello or the London Symphony Orchestra. Sure, there's not as much detail in one of these artists' pop/folk recordings, but there's plenty of "micro" detail, if that makes any sense. The same is true of a solo piano or chamber music recording. The ensemble is small--is there enough detail there to warrant a high-quality speaker? (I don't listen to chamber music, but I think the answer is yes.)

To use a visual analogy, the photographer at the portrait studio doesn't stow his good camera and pull out an old Kodak Instamatic to take a single model's photo because there's too little detail to capture in just one person to warrant the use of the good camera. (I realize this analogy is poor because the model, being a real live person, has almost infinite detail. But, still, one model presents less detail to capture than a group shot.)

But it's really the third point of view that I find difficult to understand. I've read similar comments from other owners of 1801s and other highly-regarded speakers. Comments like, "My new system is so great that most of my recordings sound like junk!" always make me cringe a bit. I think the system is there to serve the music (the majority of it, and not just the best-recorded, top 1% material), not vice-versa, and that no audio component should cause one to stop listening to recordings they like.

Here's where I'll use another visual analogy (hopefully a better one). Suppose you have two photos. Let's make them 8x10's, which means they can potentially show a lot of detail. One of them is a perfect photo (of what, it doesn't particularly matter). The other is sort of grainy, slightly out-of-focus, and it's of something you treasure deeply (your first car, your wife, your favorite childhood toy, your speakers :-), etc.) You can enjoy both photos, even though the second is of mediocre (or worse) quality.

Now let's say you want to scan those photos to preserve a copy, or to post on a web site, or to send to your sister. You go out and buy the  highest-quality scanner and imaging software you can afford. You scan both photos. The scan of the perfect photo still looks  great, and of course you can still enjoy it. The other scan looks like the photo. It's still grainy, and it easily exposes all the original's flaws. But it doesn't highlight them unduly, either. You knew those flaws were always there, and you can still enjoy looking at the scanned image. It still means something to you. You don't cover your eyes and run screaming from the room. You don't banish that image to your old computer with the crummy monitor.

To return to music, if a new audio component makes me avoid my good-but-not-great recordings, maybe it's telling me the truth, but not the whole truth. Maybe it's emphasizing the bad things while neglecting the good things. I think most of us have known someone like that, someone who always "tells it like it is" and criticizes everyone and everything within sight. Technically, they may be right, but they're generally not the kind of people you want to hang around with.

To be clear, I'm not saying or implying that my 1801F's are the musical equivalent of that type of person. To my ears, they sound really good (with many types of music) at low levels, but too forward at louder levels. That characteristic may be inherent to the speakers, or it may be the result of my Creek integrated amp running out of steam, contruction errors, unoptimized port length, poor room acoustics, or something else.

I think maybe I just don't like the sound of an truly flat speaker (or even one that's 2 dB down on the top end--I used the 8/12.5 resistor option). Maybe I don't crave detail as much as many audiophiles. I want to hear the details, but I don't need them thrust in my face.

I do think I am going to be happy with my 1801F's in the long term, but I think I may have to do something to pad the treble down even more. I think that will balance the sound on most of my recordings, while preserving the clarity I hear from the midrange down. Granted, the sound may not be as accurate, and maybe I'll have to turn in my audiophile credentials, but that's OK. I'd rather optimize my system for the typical case, rather than for the best case. That's the beauty of DIY, isn't it?

I think a speaker can be great (and be considered high-resolution) without being ruthlessly revealing. Such a speaker can sound great with great recordings of all types of music (not just large-scale classical music), good with good recordings, and bad with bad recordings. But it doesn't have to be something that sounds great with 5% of my collection, and terrible with the other 95%. I'm hopeful that, with more tweaking, my 1801F's can be such a speaker (for me, in my room, with my equipment). So, I guess I'd reply to Jack, "Yes, I can handle the truth. Just back up a little, and stop shouting at me."

Ron

David Ellis

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Whew....
« Reply #9 on: 16 Feb 2005, 07:12 pm »
That's a bunch of typing!

It appears to be clear that this issue... is not very clear.  In this regard, I am not sure that it can be very clear.  There is considerable subjectivity herein, and I appreciate your work on this issue.  

On the 5% of better pop recordings, a high resolution speaker can be appreciated.  On the other 95% (i.e my beloeved Philips, Craig & Dean) pop recordings sound... like pop recordings.  I put in a new pop recording last night that had some electric guitar distortion - ouch!

You are certainly welcome to add some more resistance behind your tweeters. This is VERY acceptable, and surely is the beauty of DIY.  This can be cone with commercial speakers too, but the manufacturers would tire of conveying the "how-to" for consumers.  

Please do drop me an email, or start a new string titled something like resistor options.  For years I have encouraged folks to provide feedback on this issue.   A few folks have provided feedback. This topic is very valid and very worthy of time.

Dave