Help on setting up basic separate system

greigmg · « **on:** 22 Jan 2005, 06:30 pm »

Hello, I want to set up a decent, basic separate system but need help (lots of help). From what I'm thinking so far, I think I just need a good preamp, amp, and some decent speakers. My main source will be my computer, and later I'll add a CD player.

First, I have questions about what sort of preamp to get. It needs to have a remote and the ability to add a sub. And a tuner. I've looked at the Adcom GTP-502, it has basically all my requirements (except I'm not sure if or how I'd add a sub to it). I'm also curious about preamps and digital inputs - the adcom doesn't have one, is this something I should be worried about?

As far as the amp goes, I have no idea.

My basic requirements for speakers are as such: I'd like them to have decent bass output, because I won't be adding a sub anytime soon (and would actually rather not need one). I've heard an old pair of Def Tech Power Monitors and they've put out very good sound.

As far as budget, I'm not really sure, because I don't know what I need to spend to have a good setup. So I guess I'm also looking for suggestions about what I really need to spend to just have a good sound, with some decent output. For comparison, my current system is a 20 year old Sony receiver running through 20 year old Sony floorstanders.

Thanks!

warnerwh · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Jan 2005, 06:45 pm »

I'd look at Parasound, Rotel, Adcom for decent quality and priced equipment. Audiogon.com and Ebay are two good places to buy. Buying used if you don't mind is an excellent way to go as if you don't like something or want to upgrade you will lose little if anything and the products are well made and typically well taken care of. You will save half or more from buying used and is something most of us do.
As far as speakers it's a very personal thing. Also money is certainly important. For good quality sound that seems to please alot of people are the Vandersteen model 2c series. Bought used they are a bargain. If you want good bass VMPS is a true winner and has been well acclaimed for over 20 years for bass per dollar in the entire line. There are alot of different speakers though and like I stated earlier personal taste is major. The above mentioned are a good place to start but I don't know what you want to spend. There's plenty of excellent help on this forum so ask away as we are more than happy to help others out. Glad to see you realize going to Best Buy or Circuit City is the best way to get the most sound for your money. Welcome to Audiocircle!

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #2 on:** 22 Jan 2005, 06:56 pm »

Maybe answer some questions:

MaxCast · « **Reply #3 on:** 22 Jan 2005, 07:04 pm »

First of all, welcome to AC!
Second of all, be sure to check out each and every manufacture that has a circle here at AC. They all offer tremoundus sound for the money.

To your first question. You would probably be better off researching an intigrated amp. A unit that combines a preamp and a amplifier. This offers less flexability in the future, but you generally can get better performance and one less expensive inter-connect to worry about. This is just a suggestion, not a rule.

Tubes or solid state?

Speakers are the most personal part of the puzzle. You will hear more differences and realize the most gain in performance in this part of your budget, IMO. You will be better off in the long run to spend more on a set of nice monitors now and save for a sub rather than trying to get both too quickly.

Can you DIY? Wood work and/or solder??

Would you buy used?

What functions do you need on the remote?

You really need to start with a budget so others will offer recommendations. Odyssey's little system offers everything you need for $1500. Speakers, amp, preamp and cables. You have to ask about the remote.

have fun!!!

eico1 · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 Jan 2005, 07:11 pm »

If you are using digital only sources and a require a remote control and tuner, get one of the digital receivers like the Panasonic xr-50.

Spend the rest on speakers.

steve

greigmg · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 Jan 2005, 07:56 pm »

No time to DIY (no time, law school), need to just buy something with minimal setup.

I will definitely buy used, in fact I was planning on going with used, demo, scratch & dent, etc. to get the best deals.

Functions on the remote, just the most basic - input switching, volume, mute, station selection on the tuner.

The room is about 15x25, but I'd like something with enough output I can hear throughout the house (it's only 800sq ft total). I do like to crank it.

Budget - I'm thinking probably about $1500 when it's all said and done, but I'd like, if possible, to stretch that over some time. Also, if you think I can get 95% of that sound at $1000, or should really go more, or should go less expensive speakers and buy a sub right away, please let me know.

Music - all kinds - mostly a lot of hippie bands, but also a little old school hip hop, and it's gotta be able to handle classical with a very strong bottom end. I was listening to the Koyanisqaatsi (sp?) soundtrack last night and really craving a system that can handle it.

I like the idea of something integrated, but so far haven't been able to find anything that I really think suits my needs. I guess I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that I should go with separates to get better sound and more power. For instance, I hesitate to get the panasonic receiver because I don't need 6.1 channels, dolby, etc. (all the home theater stuff). The most I want is 2.1.

Speaking of subs - how easy is it to implement crossovers? Are there preamps/receivers that have these built in, are they something I add in-line, am I completely way off the mark?

Biamping - How is this accomplished with a preamp/receiver with just one set of outputs?

I'll research all the listed equipment and look around the site some more.

Thanks for all the help!!

doug s. · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jan 2005, 04:36 am »

i would definitely scratch the idea of a tuner/preamp. you will get far better quality of both, w/separates. of course, as everyone here will tell ya, i am a tuner freak!

go here for info on tuners:
http://www.fmtunerinfo.com/
you can pick up a killer tuna for as little as $100, if yure patient. i presently have two in this price category that i would put up against *any* tuna at *any* price, confident that they would hold their own.

but, an integrated amp is a good idea. i would look for one that has preamp outs & main inputs, as this will give ultimate long term flexibility, especially if yure thinking about adding subwoofers in the future. this allows you to run an active outboard electronic x-over from the integrated amps' preamp outs, so you can use the integrated amps' built-in amp for either sub or monitor, by sending the x-overs' hi or lo-pass signal back into it thru the integrated amps' main input, & sending the other signal to the outboard amp. if yure using a tube integrated, you would likely want its amp for the monitors & a beefy solid-state amp for the subs. (or use powered subs.) w/a solid-state integrated, you would have the option of using an outboard tube amp for the monitors, & the integrated's s/s amp for the subs.

personally, i would need a tube preamp, or at least a hybrid integrated amp w/a tube preamp stage, but that's my taste. i also tend to favor tube amps...

here's a link to an excellent tubed integrated that dint sell on ebay (& this is the second time i've seen it f/a). perhaps the seller would be open to a reasonable offer, but imo, the starting bid *is* a reasonable price for this piece. when it was in production, it got great reviews, its only shortcoming being it's a little ripe in the bass. but, since it has the preamp out/main input feature i mentioned above, you could always rectify that later, w/outboard x-over/subwoofers...

ans, it also has remote control, which is a feature i can now no longer do w/o...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5740866323

good luck,

doug s.

Digital · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Jan 2005, 09:47 am »

Greig,

Grab a [used] mid-to-top of their previous year’s line, Pioneer Elite series receiver from eBay or other sources, then hunt down a set of Paradigm Monitor 9's or Monitor 11's speakers and you will be smiling ear-to-ear! Sit back and listen to the Monitor 11’s and you will understand that there is no need for a sub-woofer in your near-future.

Having lived with this combination before, I can honestly say that it matches my current high-end setup for fidelity, clarity and, quite simply, enjoyment. The separates route looks good in my home, it impresses all who see it, and I get my kicks out of owning those sexy, shiny metal boxes that I lusted for in my youth, (but could never afford them).

However, the reality is that the sound quality between what the industry, (more specifically, we – the high-end geeks / snobs ), label as mid-fidelity and what is labeled as hi-fidelity is so very slight that one has to strain to hear it, and most of the time its simply a placebo effect of sorts brought on by the quality, (or lack of), the recording / mixing session of the LP / CD that one is enjoying.

Make no mistake, nearly every set of speakers will sound quite different from another line of loudspeaker, which is to say; there are many thousands of different speaker ‘sounds’, with each manufacturer claiming to have found "the right, most accurate sound". You will not however, detect an [audible] difference between a well-built receiver, (such as the Elite series among others), and a pre-amp / power-amp combination such as that which can be had in the price range that you are shopping in. Heck, if you consider it from a technical point of view, a pair of separates may actually induce extraneous distortion originating from the cables used to connect them…

You sound like a young fellow with better things to do with his hard-earned cash… take it from an audio old-timer who has spent tens of thousands of dollars on audio reproduction equipment over the past 35 years; owning [many] stereo systems along the way, there really is a law of diminishing returns, and it strongly shows its face in the audio reproduction chain.

greigmg · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jan 2005, 01:34 pm »

My question is, how come it's so hard to find a 2-channel integrated or receiver? It seems like you either buy the $200 Sony at bestbuy, or go with some off the wall solution. I like the idea of the Pioneer elite (I've heard an Elite matched with Def Tech speakers, sounded awesome), I just feel goofy buying a huge surround receiver for my two speakers. But if the price and sound's right, I'm game.

Another question - is it possible with any of these surround sound receivers to use some of that extra power to bi-amp 2 channels?

Digital · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Jan 2005, 09:16 pm »

Greig,

Yes, that appears to be the current state of the marketplace; there is not much in the way of two-channel audio anymore. This is not so bad actually, as the morass of 5.1 etc. receivers offers one a way to get surround-sound, future-proofing for the cost of an old two-channel receiver.

Most of the higher-end used receivers that you will run across, do in fact allow you to employ the outputs from unused channels for bi-amplification. On that note however, if you take the time to listen to your ‘new’ receiver bi-amplified vs. ‘single’ wire amplification, you will soon see that there is no audible difference. I have been there, done that, with very high quality speakers, (Magnepan 1.6 QR’s).

In fact, if you hunt around on the internet, you will locate a white-paper published several years ago by a very well respected audio engineer by the name of Nelson Pass, in which he states that bi-amplification may in fact degrade the signal due to phase non-linearity’s, (timing of the signal through the circuits & wiring).

Back to receivers, with a little patience on www.eBay.ca, www.canuckaudiomart.com, www.audiogon.com or www.audioweb.com, you will find jaw-dropping deals on used 5.1 / 7.1 Pioneer Elite receivers. I picked up a fully functional Elite VSX-49, 100 watt per channel receiver at $100.00 Canadian, for my sister-in-law last week. This receiver retailed for over $800.00 new a few years back.

The trick is to shop on the audio geek sites, (I guess I am one of these folks, so the term is not meant to disrespect), as many geeks have;

A) Been convinced that their expensive receivers are inferior to separates, especially expensive separates – and they are dumping them in some kind of desperation to acquire expensive separates
B) They just have the upgrade bug and are dumping equipment so they can get “that next unit”

EBay [can] be a little more expensive in the quality receiver arena, as unreasonable bidding frenzies tend to drive the prices up beyond common sense, not always, but quite often.

Andrew

Dave G · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 12:16 am »

I may be missing something, but I don't think it's that hard to find a decent used integrated amp. Go to the Audiogon website (wwwDOTaudiogonDOTcom), on the left side click on Integrateds-Solid State, and a whole bunch of listings for good quality used integrated amps will come up. Be patient and keep looking for products from NAD, Rotel, and Cambridge (I know, I know, there are other good makers of budget gear), and you should be able to find something reasonable fairly quickly. I was able to pick up a (an?) NAD C370 that way and I've been very happy.

Good luck.

Dave

Digital · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jan 2005, 07:43 am »

The reason to purchase a well-built receiver rather than an integrated amp is that a receiver provides a tuner... not to sound too obvious...

Sound quality between a [well-built] receiver and a [well built] integrated amplifier is simply not audible. ‘Poof’, fuel on the fire on this web, I know... However, as an example, I have in my office at this moment, a well-built Adcom GSP-560 Integrated amplifier and a Pioneer VSX-455 receiver, (nothing to write home about, but not too bad either). When hooked to the same speaker cable, same speakers, using the same source... I cannot tell the difference in sound between these units, even when cranked to volumes that truly challenge deafness. Neither could I hear a difference between my old Carver M1.5t and any of the two other receivers that I possess; A Pioneer Elite and a Technics SA-DA10, (their top-of-the-line before they pulled the plug a few years back). I have heard all of this amplification equipment through Magnepan, Paradigm, Bose and Cerwin Vega loudspeakers, (own now or have owned recently).

I am a 7-string guitar player, in a large family, various members of whom play guitar, piano, brass / winds, fiddle and count amongst us several female vocalists; I know full-well what music and all of its subtle nuances is supposed to sound like. I must say, I have never heard an audio system truly reproduce what I hear when playing my guitar or jamming with my family, but I enjoy every audio manufacturer’s attempts :-)

Andrew D.

greigmg · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 06:52 pm »

Well I took Digital's (I sent you a PM, don't know if you got it or not) advice and got a Pioneer Elite VSX-41 for a good price off ebay. I'll probably get a stereo-link 1200 to go from the computer to the stereo, and then save up the rest of the semester for a great pair of speakers.

One last question about cables - what is recommended for the best bang for the buck? I'm going to research here in a second, but figured I'd ask ayway.

Thanks again for all the responses.

Digital · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 07:20 pm »

Great! As I type, I sit here listening to Pink Floyd on an old Elite. What I have done for PC-to-Stereo connections is purchase a shielded, quality, 'RCA to DIN' cable and ran it from my Creative Labs SB Pro 128 audio card, to the tape inputs on the back of the receiver, (under the floor-boards). The difference in quality between it and the "1200" series device you mentioned will be miniscule! A much bigger difference will be in the quality of the (I suspect), MP3 files that you are running off the PC. Try to get your MP3's at a [minimum] of 192 Kb, and preferably at 320 Kb, [but those are semi-rare]. 128 Kb sounds quite muddy at anything over background music level. 320 Kb is almost good enough to fool you into thinking you are listening to CD, (given a quality rip and a decent master recording in the first place).

Regarding cables, just look for double or triple shielding, gold plating on RCA junctions is marginally better. Audible differences between basic & ‘audiophile’ cables are really debatable; audio-geeks will swear on their grandma’ grave that they are of paramount importance, yet the vast majority of the best electrical engineering minds in the world will tell you that audiophiles are fooling themselves and buy cables to listen to their own egos. Myself, I am with the engineers on that one, I am however, a bit of a shielding nut; hum & RF interference is annoying.

Andrew

greigmg · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 07:43 pm »

I have a laptop with no soundcard (besides whatever's built onto the motherboard) and currently just run a $4 1/8" -> RCA cable from the headphone jack to my receiver. I'm hoping the USB audio will give me a lot better sound than my headphone jack.

I subscribe to the Rhapsody internet music service, and since I don't have a cd player I use the computer for that as well. I listen to a lot of live shows (hippie stuff) that I've burned on to disc as well. My last purchase will probably be a decent cd player (I have about 500 shows on disc).

What should I look for in speaker wire? Monster seems to get a bad rap, plus it's so damn expensive. Any suggestions for a good bang for the buck speaker wire? Thanks.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 07:47 pm »

I have used Cat5e speaker cable - there are a variety of recipes out there, but the simplest would be to use 1 blue cable for +, one for - for each speaker - should run you about 0.50 per foot...

Sure, my Bolder M-80 is better, but before investing, I lasted about 18 months using Cat5e.

Digital · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 08:33 pm »

Guess my judgment is slightly colored; as the owner / operator of a computer sales, service and networking company, we computer geeks have our own chat-groups like this one; a subject that often comes up is USB audio. Its always poo-poo'd as being a lower quality signal... I personally have always used audio-out jacks on PCs when I wish to interface them with stereo equipment, here or for clients. Many quality PCI sound cards now sport direct-audio-out jacks as well as headphone jacks. I understand your situation with the laptop however. Perhaps I can learn a thing or two - please let me know how the 1200 series device that you refer to works out. Do and A/B comparison (please).

The CAT5e, (enhanced), is one idea, you could take it a bit further and use CAT6 or the 'soon-to-be-a-standard', CAT7 cabling for even better shielding. Purchased online it could be quite cheap. You are more likely to get a high quality, shielded cable from a large online source as opposed to your local Radio Shack, but its worth a try. I hear lots of great things about Belden cabling, www.belden.com. They are a very large, multinational company and you should be able to find their stuff from many retailers. Again, my opinion is heavy shielding will generally go hand in hand with quality build.

Andrew D.

BillyM · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 08:59 pm »

No offense to Digital above me, but I am fairly sure that the USB devices run bit-perfect transfer with error correction, which would be in essence perfect. I dont know where you are thinking its a lesser-quality transfer. I have A/B'd analog output vs digital output from a couple of different comptuers to a number of recievers with built in dac's, and seperates systems with standalone DAC's, and there is really a fantastic resolution gain in digital. I suggest getting a USB->Coaxial-Spdif (will go into the digital input on your panasonic) from Xitel.

This will give you pure digital between your laptop and reciever, even if you have to span some distance (up to 15ft usb between laptop and xitel and I have been told by some high end digital cable manufacturers that you can use up to 25ft for shielded rca spdif with no worries). For laptop users, this is by far the best setup available.

Also, if you must use mp3's, keep them at 320kb/s, or just jump to lossless (I did, and will never look back). If you start running out of space, nab a external 250gb harddrive.

It sounds like we listen to alot of the same music, otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting speakers, but I have found the Athena AS-F2 (floorstanders) and AS-B2 (bookshelves) to be amaing deals for the money. If you plan to use a sub, or have a small-to-medium sized room, the B2's will do fine. If you have room, and want to get absolutely full-range speakers, the F2's will amaze you over and over. I have heard them in a number of setups, and they really excell in all aspects. Look for sterophile's review of the F2's if you want.

Good luck,
--BillyM

corwin99 · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Jan 2005, 10:00 pm »

I've hooked up an external SoundBlaster via USB to my computer, which is then hooked up to an External DAC, and I get great sound from my computer. I also thought that USB devices are "bit-perfect" due to error correction on the USB.. i know for sure than i get better sound from my External Soundblaster's digital output to my DAC than i get from my internal sound card's Audio Outs... MUCH better.

I think it really depends on your situation - specifically your sound card and your DAC... whichever sounds better will give you a better result. However in the case of a Laptop, a USB external Soundcard would be the best bet with your Digital output going into the receiver. my 2 centz

greigmg · « **Reply #19 on:** 27 Jan 2005, 12:32 am »

Maybe you all can help me decide - after looking around a little on how to get the best sound from my usb port, I've narrowed it down to the stereo-link 1200 and the xitel pro.

Stereo-Link: Has a separate power supply, as opposed to running off the usb bus, which the company claims improves the sound (primarily the lower end) because of less noise from the computer's power supply. However, it has a DAC built in (which I've read, on this board and others, is a good one) and then runs into the RCA inputs (in other words not a pure digital --> digital signal).

Xitel Pro: On the other hand, this one runs off the usb bus, but has digital outputs so that you get the pure digital to digital connection and let the receiver's DAC do all the work.

What do you all think?

p.s. what do you mean by A/B?

p.s.s BillyM, I use lossless for all the shows, my next project after I get the stereo set up is to build a networked storage to put them all on. Right now I have 6 binders full of discs.