[ooheadsoo]

You could say that for any speaker company with good drivers that are recognizable.  Why do you level these concerns at Ellis Audio in particular?  You sound like you are accusing him in an offhand manner of selling a pedestrian speaker that any average joe could design from scratch.

[Sean]

Keep learning and doing what you're doing Dave.  Your product and reputation speaks for itself.  I know of a few experienced audiophiles that either own or have listened to your speakers for an extended period of time and all are impressed.  As such, there is no reason to veer away from the path that you've chosen in any way, shape or form.  Compromising the quality of your products or your personal beliefs wouldn't be beneficial to any one involved in the equation.  Sean
>

[David Ellis]

Chris,

Thanks for responding.  I think your late hour provided info for me that was a bit fuzzy.

I suppose the best way to redress my view about it is to pay heed to the sex, politics and religion rule.

  Yes, these issues are pesky.

I know, for instance, of one business that always answers the phones "Steve's ...., Jesus loves you"

   Yeah, this is more than I am moved to convey.  However, I read some letters from the constitution framers.  I skimmed through about 50 of them during a boring day in college.  Darn near all of those guys ended their letter with some reference to God.

Thanks too for the rest of your response.

[David Ellis]

You sound like you are accusing him in an offhand manner of selling a pedestrian speaker that any average joe could design from scratch.

I think Chris's response is summed up here:

I don't know what category to place the 1801 in. I need to hear it.

Also, I think a slighty smarter than "average joe" could indeed design the crossover for the 1801 - with enough time and effort.  Dennis Murphy accomplished the 1801 crossover.  I believe Dennis is a humble guy at heart.  However, continues his semi-professional musician (paid sometimes) endeavor, with 30+ years of puttering with loudspeakers, and a Ph.D. .  Dennis spent, oh, 50-100 hours with the 1801.  I wish to convey that Dennis is an "average joe", but has a lifetime of investment.  I suspect that any average joe could completely replicate Dennis Murhy's efforts given enough time and effort.

BTW, I am getting close to being good with crossovers, but don't believe my skill could accomplish the 1801 crossover from scratch in the same fashion that Dennis executed the 1801 crossover.  This comes after 5-6 years of knowledge and experimentation.  Getting a non-ferro tweeter and a 7" metal cone woofer in harmony is quite an accomplishment.

[Mudjock]

Well Dave...

There has been a lot of activity on this thread since I last posted.  I guess it's not difficult to get advise on how you could do things differently.  I get a lot of this without even asking - especially from my 2-year-old.  

I will email you later with a picture of my 1801's - so you can post it along with any related data that would help.  I just put the 1801's back in my system this weekend - since DIY Iowa, popular demand has been to listen to the "speakers that daddy built".  I threw in "The Eagles - Hell Freezes Over" CD and learned once again that, although "daddy's speakers" are quite listenable, the 1801's are in an altogether different (higher) category.

"Mudjock" was a label that was developed by us Physicists to describe Ceramic Engineers in grad school.  Now that I am working in the Ceramics field, I have become one by definition.  I like the fact that it sounds very non-technical since I prefer to deal with people on even terms rather than flaunting my education.

[stvnharr]

Dave,
A couple things jump out at me in your initial post.  
You really have no more time for your part time hobby business than what you now can do.   You have met your goal of at least breaking even, though just barely.  But what’s stuffing things up a bit is that you have TOO many customers who want you to build speaker cabinets.  That may be a “nice” problem, but as long as there is a continued big backlog, it really takes away the time you need to do other things for the business.
Perhaps there is a way for you to modify the cabinets a bit so that you could make some kind of “flats kit” that could be assembled by the customer, and thus reduce the demand on your cabinet making time.  But I don’t really know if that is feasible or desired.  But subbing out the cabinet making changes the nature of your business in a very significant way.  
I remember when I came upon your website some years ago, and we began corresponding.  At that time, you seemed to have things about right, a nice DIY speaker kit business, with custom cabinetry for the few who couldn’t build their own cabinets.  Seems like you’ve gotten away from the “custom” cabinetry a bit and are just cranking them out now as more and more customers want your cabinets.
It’s YOUR business, how do YOU want to spend the time with it and keep the creativity going??!!

[David Ellis]

Perhaps there is a way for you to modify the cabinets a bit so that you could make some kind of “flats kit” that could be assembled by the customer, and thus reduce the demand on your cabinet making time.

I find it a bit strange that you mention this.  There is a gentlemen in Alaska building a pair of my speakers that has a CNC mill.  He is working on this very thing.  He completed a couple sets of these.  A partial bummer is the shipping cost to/from Anchorage.  Nonetheless, this might be vaible, and very helpful for many future customers.

Seems like you’ve gotten away from the “custom” cabinetry a bit and are just cranking them out now as more and more customers want your cabinets.

Yep, I haven't built a custom cabinet for about 3 years.

But what’s stuffing things up a bit is that you have TOO many customers who want you to build speaker cabinets.

Yep, this remains the current situation.  Jim Salk helps a bunch with this, but it'd be better for me to fill the cabinets myself.  Jim is getting busy too.  I suppose having more demand than supply is a good predicament.

[stvnharr]

Dave

Yep, this remains the current situation. Jim Salk helps a bunch with this, but it'd be better for me to fill the cabinets myself. Jim is getting busy too. I suppose having more demand than supply is a good predicament].

In the short term it's all quite good, but how sustainable is this in the longer term, both for your sake and your customers?  Hopefully things will work out pretty good.

[David Ellis]

but how sustainable is this in the longer term, both for your sake and your customers?

I think it's very sustainable from a hobby perspective (i.e. no profit).  It's certainly not wise from a business perspective.    My wife often reminds me that businesses actually make money    .

[Bill Baker]

HI Dave,
 I only read the first and last page of this thread so I may be repeating something others have mentioned but here it goes.

In regard to "breaking even", this is fine as long as you are happy with it but you mention being able to live off this business when you retire. Time is money and if you are are not making any profit, things do need to change.

Reviews: Nothing against the Circle but it will require more than feedback here on the Circle to broaden your horizons. Getting professional reviews is tricky at best. The big shows such as CES are too far out of reach. One of my best moves was being featured in several room at the smaller Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. You wouldn't do shows like this on your own and is best to hook up with a few other smaller companies or dealers that have the other associated gear to compliment your speakers. I was lucky enough to be involved with some highly regarded products at the RAM.

I also think a "Testimonials" or "Customer Feedback" page is a great thing to have on your website. It is my opinion that customer testimonials are far better than any professional review. But then again, a pro review would open the doors much quicker. I had to start my Testimonials page from square one this summer when I lost my site and actuallu felt the affects.

 I will also put a link to your site on mine. I have custom built a few amps over the past few years for owners of your speakers and they have always had nothing but glowing words about your speakers. I don't know how much good it will do but I feel you have earned the respect and integrity with your customers and that's good enough for me.

 I wish you the very best in 2005. Maybe someone in my neck of the woods has a pair of your speakers they can bring by someday for a listen?

[David Ellis]

Thanks for your comments Bill,

I had to start my Testimonials page from square one this summer when I lost my site and actuallu felt the affects.

Oooooh, ouch         This is terrible.  I would never wish this on anyone.  Creating a site takes a huge quantity of time!!

I will also put a link to your site on mine. I have custom built a few amps over the past few years for owners of your speakers and they have always had nothing but glowing words about your speakers.

Thanks a bunch Bill.  I really apprecaite this.  Hmmm, the same holds true for your products too.  I could formally place a recommended amplifiers page on my 1801 page. This would make sense.  Not everyone managed to find my dicsussion on this matter in Audio Circle.

I wish you the very best in 2005. Maybe someone in my neck of the woods has a pair of your speakers they can bring by someday for a listen?

Someone probably does, but I don't know who that might be.  I have been historically very poor at consolidating my customer list.  There are about 120 pair of 1801 speakers around the globe.  There is likely a pair fairly close to you.

I plan to send a pair of speakers out for semi-formal reviews this year.  They will need to travel to 3-4 folks, and I'll put you at the end of this list.

Dave

[stvnharr]

Dave,
My comments on sustainability were more related to the long backlog of orders.  I think anything over about 6 months is way too long, and not really sustainable in the longer term, and does take valuable time away from doing other things in the business.
In a pure business sense, well, I don't think you ever plan to put the food in the table with this business.  And that gives you a lot of freedom.

[David Ellis]

In a pure business sense, well, I don't think you ever plan to put the food in the table with this business.

This is very true   I am smart enough to know this endeavor will never render a real income.  

Hm, maybe if I lavishly embelish my rhetoric and triple my prices this could change.

Dave

[Bill Baker]

This is very true  I am smart enough to know this endeavor will never render a real income.

 That doesn't have to be true. If you want it to happen, it can. But you will have to treat it like a business and not like a hobby. To a degree.

 When I started Response Audio, it was basically a passion driven hobby. This company started out custom designing and building speakers (go figure). Made only $500 profit my first year selling to locals but loved every minute of it. I also had a full time job. Things just semed to take off from there and once I started getting involved with the modification aspect, I went from 50-100 customers a year to several hundreds of customers a year and actually had to quit my full time job of 15 years to keep up and not spread my self to thin.

 The thing with me is that I still truly enjoy what I do. It is still passion driven. It can be what you want it to be. As long as you don't let anything get in the way of treating your customers with respect.

[wwmeatman]

What do you think about Accuton drivers?

Dave

Are you thinking about building a speaker with Accuton drivers??


Tom

[David Ellis]

Are you thinking about building a speaker with Accuton drivers??

Yup.  I have some Accuton C95 drivers, but this project will remain behind many others.  Also, it may matriculate like the 2201 (SEAS W22/OW1F) project.  This one really didn't sound any better than the 1801.  The W22 was a good driver, but the overall project didn't warrant the bigger cabinet, increased cost, and my time.  Further, I liked the midrange from the 1801 better.  So, the 2201 was scrapped.

Dave

[bryanb]

Hi again Dave,

I've read this thread carefully; this is a topic near and dear for two reasons:

1) I almost had enough saved for a kit (just noticed the price increase). I'm going to keep saving and get it eventually anyway. I'm doing this penny ante because I have a family, and that how my priorities work out. I’m happy to pay because it means you’ll be staying around a while longer.

2) I run my own business and have to make a living doing it.

If this seems terse or preachy, its just so I can get to the point clearly.

As far as 1), I can save a little longer and still get what I want, which is an 1801b that I can enjoy building and take pride in when they are complete.

And for 2), Success is an outcome that begins with a goal. If I understand, your goals are 1) Enjoy a hobby for now, while breaking even in $, learning a lot, and enjoying a community and 2) Eventually having a business that 'makes money'.

These are really different goals. Getting from one to the other means changes.

I've also noticed you have a backlog that keeps you from growing (new products, being more effective getting reviews, etc). I had a plumber friend with the exact same problem.

He raised his prices until he had free time. He did not compromise the quality of his work, or do the "over promise and under deliver thing". He just began asking for compensation that was in line with the value he was providing. Then, he had time to step back, make some good decisions, and act on them. Now his business is back up, but he can afford to subcontract some things (where quality is not compromised), and can afford to reach out with some new goals.

Cash flow is the heart and soul of a business, obviously. The goals and foundations of a business can be whatever the owner makes them, but they are academic without the resources to implement them.

I've watched this forum for a while, and its clear that few people are doing business with more integrity. It would be an absolute shame if this were lost because you get tired of making $0.36 / hour in a good year. If your circumstances can stand this, you may be able to go on like this for a long time, but not forever, I suspect.

Eventually, Ellis Audio 1801b speakers might become a cult item, and won't need any 'marketing' to sell on ebay for multiples of what you charge. I don't know about you, but Van Gogh dying in poverty seems like a hell of an injustice to me. All really worthwhile endeavors have something of art in them.

I've seen lots of comments in this thread, some good, some bad, and since most of it has been covered, I'm not going to suggest much.

I would however suggest first you have a clear understanding of when you goals are going to change, so there is no confusion about what you might need to change (and when) to accomplish a new goal.

Second I would suggest that since your goal seems to be to pursue a hobby now, ask yourself if the time you put into it is equal to the satisfaction you get out of it. Your time is the one resource I see that you spend here in abundance (and thank you for that), but I'm also learning, having got to early middle age, that its damn precious.

I am an engineer, and also sell semiconductor process equipment as a representative for a very small company with very high standards of quality and integrity. Why does this small manufacturing company need my small engineering / sales company? Because the two jobs are just damn difficult to keep under one hat.

We don't sell in a way that compromises any of the standards of the company we represent, but we do something they can't. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure why this works, but representative (and distributor) arrangements have a long history of working well and being mutually beneficial.  I must agree wholeheartedly with the persons who suggest making the message about your product more accessible; if you want to turn to a goal of making money, your (admirable) humility is at odds with reaching a wider world of potential customers.

So, in short, I believe you should consider:

Keeping the kits, at least at the beginning of a product cycle- This provides you excellent close feedback, rewards early adopters, and attracts interest among newer audiophiles.

Look at your pricing structure- Opportunities for cash flow to fund new offerings, keep your curiosity fresh, and most of all, free some of your precious time.

Broaden you product offerings- New products, aiming upmarket, which should be no problem, considering your standards. Also an opportunity for some pricing differentiation.

Consider finding working partners who share your values- Opportunities abound for cabinet makers, folks who know sales channels that might fit your product, publicists that understand media relations, press releases, etc.

Word of mouth is a fine but small stepping stone. Broader horizons for Ellis Audio, most deserving of such, IMHO.

Best Regards,
Bryan

[bryanb]

Oh, and BTW, I also agree that your web site needs updating. The content is good, but the presentation is lackluster. I just finished completely updating my web site, and it took me ~10 hours, not 100+. Email me if you'd like the link and  / or information about the hosting company I use, who has on line tools for building that really simplify it.

[Bill Baker]

Interesting words bryan,
   Youare correct on many accounts with the main goal here, I think, being to decide what direction you want to go into and how long you set aside to reach your goals.
 I started out working in my basement tearing apart tube amps almost 10 years ago making pennies (but I loved every minute of it and also had a full time job of 15 years). I have 4 kids, wife, mortgage, yada, yada, yada and yes, I do need to make a living at what I do now. The one thing I will not compromize is reputation and integrity which I feel is exactly what Dave is also paying close attention to.

 Dave, whatever route you choose to take, just remember it doesn't matter how much money you make if you're not enjoying what you do. (within reason). Take your time, set your goals and go after them at a comfortable pace.

[rwehands]

Dave
I am a new comer to this discussion, so pardon me if I repeat what has been stated many times before.  Your candor and optimism and good will always gets me attention.  Very few would simply open up their finances to the world and share their setbacks and dissappointments at the same time.  From what I know of this hobby/business many of your problems are a function of a collective, societal short attention span.
It's not an accident that the most common greeting these days is " What's new?"  Having set out the ground rules found here and there throughout copious communications, I don't believe there is any quick fix for the "stagnation" you encountered last year.  I have operated half a dozen small businesses over the last 40 years and I would have to conclude that doing the best work or selling the best products actually bores people after a while.  This goes for decent well-meaning ones as well as those few hifi snobs.  I suspect you will have to do some soul searching as your hobby moves towards the retirement business.  I do wish you the very best in this truly worthwhile endeavor.
Ross Edwards

PS  You seem open to having your fans literally descend upon your home so..... you could charge them to come and build a set with speakers with you (let's at least put them in a motel).  This would clearly eat up a lot of time (coming after retirement) and probably be pricey for the customers but ...... it might be rewarding in other ways on both sides.