[Mudjock]

Dave,

I have a couple of questions and comments regarding your obviously well thought out reflections.

I have considered contributing a review of the 1801's, but have refrained for a couple reasons.   1.  We have known each other since we were your childrens' age - so I am concerned that my review might not be totally objective.  I do still reply to questions about 1801's that I am in a good position to answer, and I still recommend them to individuals who are clearly after speakers with qualities that the 1801's possess.  I am also happy to provide an audition to any interested parties.  2. (more generally applicable)  I'm not sure I could add much to the already considerable body of well-written 1801 reviews available at audioreview.com.  How much difference do you feel there is between having a few dozen positive reviews versus a few hundred?

Professional reviews are an interesting topic.  This has been the watershed moment for many aspiring audio companies.  Those that were ready from a business/accounting perspective for the extra attention that a positive review might bring saw things take off - others collapsed under the weight of scaling up and dealing with increased scrutiny and expectations.  Personally, I would not take this step until I had the cabinet production issue under control.  I also think you will probably enjoy your time in the shop more if you are doing product development than if you are struggling to keep up with your backlog (admittedly not the worst problem to have).

Last, but not least, keep up the good fight.  I think you are a true asset to the audio community and have maintained a healthy perspective through it all.  If there's any way that I can help - just let me know...

Scott

[maxwalrath]

I haven't given this much thought, but maybe you could raise the cost of your finished speakers by about $400-450 without much drop in demand.

My thinking on this...

Say I wanted a kit. I for example am not very handy with diy stuff and would want the completed crossover and Dave's stuffing brew. This brings the kit cost to $780 plus shipping. This doesn't include wood and all cabinet related materials. Unless I was a master woodworker, my costs would be about $900 plus needing all the right tools, plus spending countless hours of my time, all to have a cabinet no where near the quality Dave makes.

The level of woodworking being provided on the 1801 is worlds above most competitors at the price, and price isn't high enough relative to the kit. Maybe have the process of cabinet making could be a main point of your advertising, with detailed pictures of the long, long process.

My point...unless I was already damn good at woodworking and had all the tools needed, the +/- $900 kit is hardly an option when top notch cabinets could be had for not too much more.

I might consider the new price point I want, and then talk with your customers to see if they would mind having the current speakers on order done by Jim Salk and the other great cabinet makers you know. Catch up on the back-log, get rid of the 12 month wait, and start taking new orders at a profitable price...with the new customers aware what a bargain they're getting for quality cabinets even at a few hundred more.

[hubcaps]

Hi Dave,

What about a webpage overhaul?  Maybe it will look more "professional" if it the webpage looked more up to date with today's webpage design.  Right now it looks a little generic because the old frontpage theme.  I know that it'll take a lot of time to redesigning it, so I don't know if the time put in would be worth it.
Also, take new pics.  Some of them, especially the picture on the first page, are fuzzy.

[randog]

Jeez Dave, I feel guilty!

I'm one of those guys who bought a kit and had Darren Thomas build some beautiful cabinets. However, I only found out about you here and read all I could about your speakers before taking the plunge.

I love the speakers, but since I am just getting back into audio after 20 years and never into high end like this, I never felt qualified to give a review... still don't. I'm enjoying them immensly, however.

During and after the build I was posting lots. It was and is my feeling that keeping your forum active and showing progress of speaker builds is a way to stir up excitement and that was my way of giving back for all the assistance and friendly advise I've received from you. It's always been appreciated.

Since I've had my speakers in operation, most of what keeps me interested in this forum is reading about your new projects. Even if they never see the light of day, it keeps your name in the 'what's new' column. Frankly, the 1801 has such a stellar reputation, I'm not sure additional reviews are going to change much... especially if they are all found in the same place (ie: audioreview). What I would work on is further exposure to a wider audience with your single product offering *or* a larger product line to the same audience. Since additional product offerings are not going to start jumping out of your R&D right and left, it may make more sense to concentrate on better (as in MORE) exposure right away.

I'm not sure you should expect customers to write reviews. I mean, it's nice, but when someone pays for a product they more or less feel that the transaction is complete and both parties go on their merry way. Aligning your thinking here might make you feel less slighted. Now, in the case of auditions - which happens in these circles quite often - it is more than reasonable for a manufacturer to expect a review and can easily be a stipulation of the audition process. An outright purchase isn't so easily controlled. Having said that, including a customer review sheet with your kits (or completed speakers) as a customer service type questionaire would be a really good idea and I'll bet that would get a high percentage of great feedback. With consent (on the same questionaire) you could ask if the customer minds whether you use their comments for promotional purposes. Then, SELF-promote with it! (similar to your use of Al's comments on your webpage). Take that information and create your own customer satisfaction matrix (or whatever) and run with it. Self-promotion is really the only way for a small, limited quantity product operation to get their name shoved in amongst the big guys. Take it from another little guy business owner in a sea of big fish.

SELF-PROMOTE  

That's my .02 and I'm sticking to it!

All the best,
Randy

[David Ellis]

Your feedback is very apprecaited.  I don't know there are any clear answers to this issue.  Any thoughtful words on your part are very helpful.

I am VERY un-interested in a total web-page redesign.  I have spent 500-1000 hours on my website on all the material.  I obviously woudn't have to re-accomplish all of this, but a complete re-format in another web page authoring tool would consume 100-200 hours (guestimated).  This type of work is also much less than enjoyable.  About the only thing I might consider changing is via a newer version of Front Page.   A new version of Front Page might have templates that look more trendy.

I totally agree about the fuzzy pictures on my page and this will soon be fixed.  The picture content will obviously change too.  I dno longer own many of the speakers pictured on my page.  These picturers were of customers speakers, or speakers that were sold to friends.  In any event, my wife has a VERY good Canon cameral lens, and she will be getting a the Canon SLR camera body shortly - maybe in a few weeks.  I am not sure how soon I will replace the pictures, but many of them are indeed very fuzzy.  Until about 1 month ago I thought all digital camera's were the same.  I thought the only thing that mattered was the pixel resolution.  Clearly this isn't the case.  Just because a camera has xyz megapixels of ability doesn't automatically infer that all of the dots are faithfully transferred.  This is visually apparant to my eyes.

I think the cost of completed 1801s could rise by $400 with little/no impact in my demand.  I suspect that demand would continue to be higher than supply, but... the price won't rise that much.  

I really enjoy the fact that my customers are tolerant and patient with my timeline.  This really is necessary with my job, family, and church activities.  As the 1801s approach an accurate price, customers will expect faster response.  At maybe $3000 the 1801 should be available "now" and with the possibility of return for an reason.  Somewhere between $1300 and $3000 there remains room for my customers to be understanding of my backorder status.  A wise old man once told me, "Son, you can have it good, you can have it fast, or you can have it cheap.  But you can't have all 3".  I believe these were very wise words.

Scott, I do understand your position and appreciate your consideration.  I also realize that you are not one of my customers per-se.  However, could I post your demographs and a picture of your 1801s on my web page.  And, where did "Mudjock" come from?  This seems like a strange moniker for a guy with your education.

[BeeBop]

Oh man I feel for you. I have been operating my own business for over 5 years now and often working cheap to build up good word-of-mouth. It is a slow and often frustrating experience. There are people out there who will take advantage of that to squeeze out every advantage they can. I actually once had a customer (a multi-million dollar company with thousands of employees) demand 90 day payment terms on a $1200 invoice. I mean how much interest are you gonna get on a $1200?

Have you thought about sending a pair to a review - say 6 moons or someone like that. Would give you a big boost, I would think.

[David Ellis]

Have you thought about sending a pair to a review - say 6 moons or someone like that

I do have a pair of 1801 loudspeakers traveling for reviews, but.. what is"6 moons".

BTW, I love the picture of the cat in the hat!

I'm not sure you should expect customers to write reviews.

I generally don't expect this.  I do, however, become puzzled when folks say they will write a review, then don't.  This is quite often the case.

I never felt qualified to give a review... still don't.

Hmmm, I do find this a bit strange.  I think the really great part about www.audioreview.com is that anyone can write a review.  I'd much rather read ordinary reviews from ordinary guys than read constantly positive verbose praise of every reviewed product in magazine XXXXX.  I am sure you know the magazine.  Anyhow, I think comments from ordinary guys are great.

BTW, Randog, can you send me your system info, personal info and a digital picture?  As I recall, your speakers are among the very best walnut cabinets ever constructed.  They were incredibly good looking!

[David Ellis]

With consent (on the same questionaire) you could ask if the customer minds whether you use their comments for promotional purposes. Then, SELF-promote with it! (similar to your use of Al's comments on your webpage). Take that information and create your own customer satisfaction matrix (or whatever) and run with it.

I... really don't want to do this.  It simply looks, well, slimy.  I have seen such comments on the owner's web page and never read them.  This is because there is too much room for the product owner to edit/change these remarks.  This is totally eliminated when folks post their own comments on an independent page like audioreview.  I trust those comments and believe they are real.  Comments I wrote about myself on my page are too easily edited and therefore inherently not trustworthy.

Someone I respect, told me that I really needed to change my ideas and rhetoric to be more successful.  He said that making lots of money would require me to indulge in the same slippery slope lies common to other manufacturers.  He might indeed be correct.  In this regard, I will likely never make ample money building speakers.

However, I am about to bust-out some rhetoric against the raw specifications presented by other manufacturers regarding their loudspeaker specifications.  I learned a few things today that really upset me.  However, there are two problems.  First, I must do this in such a way that I do not incur a lawsuit.  The truth will hurt.  Second, there are so many lies among so many manufacturers.  Which one should I chose for an example.  More to follow....

Dave

[randog]

Dave, I hear you about self-promotion, but it's real.

There is nothing wrong with promoting your business and it doesn't have to be slimy. Personally, I have had very little success in my product design business with advertising, etc, but fortunately I have managed to stay in business for 10 years by word of mouth referrals. I don't, however, have a marketable product and that's a different game altogether.

Don't be down on self-promotion. Your circle here is a form of self-promotion as is your website. Sending your product out for professional review is another. In my line of work, many consultancy firms - especially industrial design - self promote to the point of nausea. But guess what? They have become household names in the design arena with these techniques. They enter every design contest known to man and enter many different products in the same competition. In addition, they take full credit for a design when usually it is a combined effort of the consultancy, the customer, and other role players. This is where I start to think 'slimy' - especially when a product starts to lean further toward the goal of design award winner and less of functional and manufacturable product. For these reasons alone, I don't participate. But by not participating I lose a lot of potential publicity and free advertising... (winning the contest is actually secondary to the exposure).

Asking for feedback on your speakers and using that information for promotion is not slimy, IMO. Like you, I tend to gloss over when I see one sentence quotes used and especially partial sentences! (for example, whenever you see a quote that ends in (...) just imagine the rest of it to be "FOR ME TO POOP ON!"   ) However, you can organize and present this info in a classy way and if it means getting feedback whereas you wouldn't otherwise, then it's all good. It doesn't need to be presented like this month's cheesy movie premier! (and that's not what I was suggesting)

My point is this: you really shouldn't be relying on your customers to promote your product. I agree it's the best and most sincere way, but with your low volume and lack of visibility it's not enough. If you can increase your visibility then I think the performance of your speakers will speak for themselves.

Now, suppose you go on a crusade to get some articles and reviews published... now what? How will you meet demand if you already have a 12 month waiting list? Be careful what you wish for!   So, I guess I'm curious what you would like to see and do in the future. Do you want to sell lots of speakers or do you want to build speakers yourself on a custom basis? I'm guessing you could contract with a cabinet making company to build the cabinets on a production basis with automated equipment. As you're probably aware, the quality doesn't have to go down and will, in fact, go up with proper fab setup and procedures. You could be involved at any level, from wood selection to finishing and still end up with something you'll be proud to have your name attached to. Sooo... what would be your perfect solution to what's frustrating you about the business today (besides the fact that it doesn't make any money!)?  

Randy

PS: I'll definitely get you my info as soon as I get decent pics of my 1801's. Maybe Darren has good ones on his site I can nab.

[David Ellis]

Hey Randog, I checked Darren's site.  I think these might be your speakers:


I don't remember this clearly though.  

Anyhow, when you are able to send info for my Customer Community page - great!!

And... I'll think about the self promotion thing some more.

[MemphisJim]

strongly believe that people (and reviewers) will like to buy a
3000$ pair of speaker because:
- it is expensive
- it sounds good (like the 1801)
- it cannot be build via a kit

I'd rather not see Dave offer a speaker without a kit. I'm being very selfish here, he he. Dave's work is top notch and it's to my advantage to be able to work off of his knowledge. Now if business demands this, then so be it. But for me, his work has allowed for the taste of a high end speaker on a budget I can afford. I'd like (I think, maybe not) to be able to purchase a pair of Avalon Acoustics two way speakers. I can't. But his work has gotten me real close and it wouldn't surprise me if the 1801's top them (been awhile since I've heard the AA's). THANKS Dave!

Per Dave's price increase....I don't see how he can't. I put a large amount of time into my pair of 1801's and they were well worth it!! But, to offer them at the price that Dave now offers them for is actually pretty incredible. I know he can speed up the build process a little over a many pairs of speaks by cutting large amounts of panels at the same time once the table saw is set-up, but still, there is alot of work past that point that is slow going (for me at least). btw, did I mention that glueing the front baffle on, glueing on the veener, trimming and rounding the baffle, cutting the driver holes, scalloping the backside woofer baffle, applying a finish to the wood, gluing in whispermat, adding the posts, constructing the crossovers and installing them and the drivers was alot of work? No complaints here, I had fun...

Per sending them out for "professional" review. I've got an interesting question. How do you set-up the tweeter crossover? Flat or the normal 2 dB down?

Per using owner's comments for self-promotion. Sign me up right now and use my comments as much as you want. I've listened to alot of different speakers and these are up there with the best. I'd recommend them to anyone (well, unless they want a party speaker). I've not posted a review yet. Last night was the first time that I really sat down to listen to them with classical music (the last three weeks have been pop, rock and jazz). WOW, I was blown away again. I listened to a delos recording of Fanfare for the Common Man. The timpani were located in the back, right where they were supposed to be and the orchestra was right up front. The sound was just smoooooth...I also listened to Cliburn - Tchaikovsky Concerto #1 - Kondrashin. Incredibible! The orchestra was layed out right in front of me and Cliburn's piano was never burried when the whole orchestra got going.


Jim

[David Ellis]

I listened to a delos recording of Fanfare for the Common Man

Good on ya'!  Delos does very good recordings.  I think these are on par with Reference Recordings.

If I do something different without a kit in a 2 way MT, it won't be much better than the 1801. This is simply because it can't be much better than the 1801.  Maybe it can only get worse than the 1801.  IMO, there is only 1 other midwoofer in the running with the W18.  It's the Accuton C95.  

I may stop selling kits eventually, but only when I can complete enough cabinets to keep up with demand.  This will require considerable time.   I don't see this happening any soon.  Norh once sold kits, and a few other folks did too.  This seems to be a good way to "test the waters".  The fundamental difference is that Norh (Mr. Barnes) has the time and $ to get business rolling quickly.  Next month I'll start a new job that will keep me away from home for 1 week intervals.  This is a bummer, but my job will remain a blessing compared to those G.I.'s wearing bullet proof vests in the desert.  My heart really goes out to those guys.

[BeeBop]

what is 6 moons?

Six Moons is an online audio review site 6 Moons

[woodgab]

Dave,

You fit in so much with the DIY crowd and seem to wear the mantle of guru really well.  I am a DIY'r, but not especially a speaker hobbiest.  Not having heard the 1801's I guess the comments I am going to make are a bit premature.  But here goes:

-You do not strike me as being entirely comfortable commercializing your product.  This would be needed following a positive trade review.  There are elements to marketing we all hate, yet they are market driven.  
-You are probably right about the pricing room on your finished speakers, but I think it will take the afformentioned marketing to get it there.  Also, don't underestimate how they'll feel if your, no cab, kit falls to 1/3 the price they paid for a boxed one.
-You may want to reconsider the place your religion has in the profile of your business.  In your conceivable market, beliefs differ quite a lot and references to faith can be alienating.
-Don't underestimate the number of customers who are merely looking for XO recipes for their chosen drivers.  This applies to the kit crowd.  If I really like the OW1 and Seas drivers, does there have to be a proprietary premium on the XO, or will there be other free XO designs from the expanding internet community?  Or, for that matter, are there other designs kit buyers will migrate to on the basis the XO designer's talents.

From my keyboard, I don't know whether this OW1 application is better,  worse, or sufficiently the equal, of the 1801b: http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/asterion.html .  Suffice to say, it seems well thought out.

Its a tough slog.  I hope this was useful.  Its late.  

Have you considered a high end inwall ?

Chris

[David Ellis]

Woodgab,

Thanks for offering your comments.  My reflections will follow.

-You do not strike me as being entirely comfortable commercializing your product.

You are very correct. This is simply because I cannot build enough cabinets nor can I garuntee time at the keyboard.  My full-time job and family certainly come before speaker building.  My work will assume a different character next month when I have to deploy for 1 week periods.  I will not be accessible during these times.  This is obviously not condusive for someone operationg a "commercia" entity.  A bad reputation could/would certainly follow.

-You may want to reconsider the place your religion has in the profile of your business. In your conceivable market, beliefs differ quite a lot and references to faith can be alienating.

Hmmm, I am bothered by this    .  I think it is somewhat sad that expression of religion is publicly frowned upon.  While ontology, philosophy, psychology, sociology, have some very good eplanations about what should be, I believe that religion is an extremely postive catalyst for behavior.  Sure, the naysayers will cite the problems with extreme radical's, but what about the other 99.99% of people who benefit, and who's societies benefit, from their religious practice?  I believe that if anyone is "alienated" by discussion of religion they really needs to take some time for serious introspection.  

In this regard, I have met people who are uncomfortable discussing religion. These folks aren't common.  Among these few people it's my unqualified assessment that these people were/are very uncomfortable with who they are.  There was more happening "under the surface" than what appeared superficially.  However, in all these people, none of them were personally bothered by any public declaration of religion.

I really haven't met anyone who actually was bothered by public delcaration of religion.  I believe that 80% (my crude estimation) of people in the United believe religion is essentially positive.  Approximately 20% of folks don't care about relgion.  However, there is about .1% of people have successfully lobbied & litigated religion out of the public.  This mystifies and saddens me    .

Are you alienated by my confession of Christianity?

Do you actually know people that wouldn't do business with anyone professing to be a Christian?

As a history lesson... in 1925 Clarence Darrow argued that anyone who would teach Creation to the exclusion of Evolution in school is certainly a bigot.  I agree.  Sadly, today the opposite argument is gone.  Evolution as taken-over the curriculum.  Creation is nearly extinct in public schools, and the public declartion of religion is slowly dissappearing.

Years ago I did a crude study correlating the relationship between violent crime, and the percentage of schools in the USA that said the Pledge of Allegance.  I am smart enough to know there are other indicators of good religious teaching, but the correlation was frightening.  As the Pledge of Allegance was pushed from schools from @1955 to 1980 the occurence of violent crime rose @250% per capita.  Again, there are many other social indicators to cite, but I believe this one cannot be ignored.

Please understand that I am not attacking you.  These are simply some of my personal sentiments on this matter.

If I really like the OW1 and Seas drivers, does there have to be a proprietary premium on the XO, or will there be other free XO designs from the expanding internet community?

Good question!  There are a couple of answers.  I don't suspect anyone will have the gumption to copy the 1801 crossover and publicise it.  Certainly there are many more appealing crossovers to copy.  Many commercial products have a much better repuation than the 1801.  However, am honored that you place the 1801 in a category worthy of this.

I will not make the 1801 crossover public domain for the same reasons that Kharma will not make their crossovers public domain.  There certainly doesn't have to be a "proprietary premium" on the crossover.  However, continued effort/business depends on this.  Further, I really don't think "premium" is a fair word choice.  Those folks who have built the 1801 and compared it to speaker costing 5-20x$ know the inside story on this.  The general sentiment is that the 1801 is an extreme bargain in hifi.  Paying for the 1801 isn't a "premium", it's a "steal".  However, if I charged $2500 for the kit and $5k for completed speakers, the 1801 would be appropriately priced.  If I charged $5k for the kit and $10k for completed speakers.... that'd be a "premium".  

I have built several designs using 8" drivers that could very easily be public domain.  I even built a very good 3-way for under $500.  However, I really don't think any of these designs are worthy of a customers time in the cabinet shop.  The 1801 remains a much smarter project due to the size of the cabinet, the complexity of the project,  the total project cost, and the sound quality obtained.

From my keyboard, I don't know whether this OW1 application is better, worse, or sufficiently the equal, of the 1801b: http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/asterion.html . Suffice to say, it seems well thought out.

Rick is much better with crossovers now than in the early years.  I am sure his implementation of the OW1 is just fine.  If a guy wanted to spend less on the midwoofer, live with a decoupling curvalinear cone and simple motor, the Vifa driver is a smart choice.  Personally, I prefer paper for a flexible curvalinear cone, but this a personal bias.  I must admit not having a complete answer about all curvalinear cones, but did see a comment from a SEAS engineer concerning the reason for the midrange droop of the new L18 SEAS drivers.  He said this was because the inside of the cone decoupled with the outside of the cone.  The result was a midrange response droop when compared to the L18 with the straight-sided cone.  Indeed the straight sided cone had a more severe resonance, but the cone was more rigid in the 2khz region.  I suspect the same is true with the vifa wood cone.  The curvalinear shape makes life much easier on the crossover designer, but does flex in the midrange.  Ya' can't have yer' cake and eat it too.

Also, I must comment here that paper curvalinear cones can and do sound very good with old rock-n-roll.  IMO, nothing is better for old rock-n-roll than some big JBL's!!  I have also heard that old Altec speakers sound incredible on this type of music, but have not heard this personally.

Have you considered a high end inwall  ?

Honestly.... no.  I haven't given, much/any thought to the 1801s and home theater.  This is simply because HT source material is generally average quality.  I think some good paper cones are the smart choice in this regard.  Sure, stiff cones will provide more resolution, but this isn't always better.  Jim Salk ( www.salksound.com ) and I agree on this matter.  He developed a very good speaker for home theater with a crossover for in-wall applications.  

Or, for that matter, are there other designs kit buyers will migrate to on the basis the XO designer's talents.

I am really not sure what you mean.  Could you explain further?

[Rick Craig]

Quote:
From my keyboard, I don't know whether this OW1 application is better, worse, or sufficiently the equal, of the 1801b: http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/asterion.html . Suffice to say, it seems well thought out.  


Rick is much better with crossovers now than in the early years. I am sure his implementation of the OW1 is just fine. If a guy wanted to spend less on the midwoofer, live with a decoupling curvalinear cone and simple motor, the Vifa driver is a smart choice.


RICK: Actually Dave that's not my design but the owner did ask me about my experience with combining the XT woofer and OW1. The motor on the Vifa isn't a "simple" one and is closer to the SD motors used in the Scan-Speak line.

I appreciate the fact that you stand up for your beliefs. As a Christian I think that customers benefit from those that "walk the talk" and operate their businesses with the highest level of integrity and honesty.

[jackman]

Hi Chris,

I have know Dave Ellis for years and would like to comment on some of the observations below.  No offense but I disagree with some of your statements and would like to give my opinions.  

You fit in so much with the DIY crowd and seem to wear the mantle of guru really well. I am a DIY'r, but not especially a speaker hobbiest. Not having heard the 1801's I guess the comments I am going to make are a bit premature.

This is what kind've set me off.  Dave soesn't "fit in" with any croud.  Nor does he go out of his way to fit in.  He's more of a "student" of the speaker building world.  He is constantly learning and asking questions and is the last guy in the world to take the position of a "guru".  Dave is very helpful and quick to help people out when they ask.  

You do not strike me as being entirely comfortable commercializing your product. This would be needed following a positive trade review. There are elements to marketing we all hate, yet they are market driven.

You are correct, Dave is not comfortable commercializing his product.  This is more a product of time (or lack of it) and personal priorities (primary job, family, etc.) than anything else.  He is very upfront and careful not to overpromise and under-deliver.  If he thinks something will take 6 months, he'll say 6 months.  I don't know if a positive review will help Dave because increased demand will only cause more problems.  Regarding "marketing" I don't understand what you mean.  I don't think Dave needs to stoop to the levels of some companies and adopt slick marketing practices at the expense of credibility.  Audio By Van Alstine is a good example of a company that manages to survive and do well without overtly trying to "market" their products.  Ellis can do the same.  

-You are probably right about the pricing room on your finished speakers, but I think it will take the afformentioned marketing to get it there. Also, don't underestimate how they'll feel if your, no cab, kit falls to 1/3 the price they paid for a boxed one.

I believe Dave only offers kits because it's impossible for him to accomodate all the demand for his finished speakers.  Kits are a decent source of income until he can find a way to ramp up production on finished speakers.  

-You may want to reconsider the place your religion has in the profile of your business. In your conceivable market, beliefs differ quite a lot and references to faith can be alienating.

What do you base this statement on?  Dave is not ashamed about his religion but is not "in your face" with it, IMO.  From the start, Dave decided to run his business in a way that was consistent with his beliefs, without compromise.  You can see it when you look at the amout of detail and exacting standards he puts into his cabinets.  Again, I don't think Ellis suffers from lack of demand.  If Dave could make two or three times as many speakers per year, he'd probably sell to or three times as many speakers.  Many people have waited as long as 6 or 8 months for a pair of 1801's.  That says a lot about the quality of his work and the value the 1801's represent.  It's total conjecture (kind've like your statement) but I dont' think people are shying away from Ellisaudio because of Dave's professions of faith.  I believe Dave's difficulty meeting demand with supply is his biggest issue.  He has very high standards and will not compromise.  That's a two edged sword because it helps create demand and establish his credibility, but limits has options to accomodate that demand.  Pure economics would tell him to raise prices but he still needs to make sure his product is a value at the higher price point.  

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-Don't underestimate the number of customers who are merely looking for XO recipes for their chosen drivers. This applies to the kit crowd. If I really like the OW1 and Seas drivers, does there have to be a proprietary premium on the XO, or will there be other free XO designs from the expanding internet community? Or, for that matter, are there other designs kit buyers will migrate to on the basis the XO designer's talents.

Huh?  I read your statement several times and still can't figure out what you are trying to say.  Are you saying people are buying the 1801's because they want to steal or copy the crossover?  That would be pretty easy to do without buying them.  Dave had a pair of demo speakers going around the country that could have been easily copied.  I don't see the point because the cost of the kit is pretty much what you'd spend on the materials if you bought them separately.  Have you ever priced the components, or even the drivers that go into an 1801?  Dave is not getting rich on these kits.  What's the point or advantage of copying?  Regarding other "recipes" for these drivers or "free programs over the internet".  Are you aware of any that use the same drivers and are on par with the 1801, or is this just more pointless speculation?  I've heard several speakers that use the same woofers and several that use the same tweeters but none of them sounded as good to me as the 1801's.  If you have a link to speakers you have heard that use the same drivers and sound better (to you or another objective source), I'm all ears.

From my keyboard, I don't know whether this OW1 application is better, worse, or sufficiently the equal, of the 1801b: http://home.twcny.rr.com/cnydga/asterion.html . Suffice to say, it seems well thought out.

Its a tough slog. I hope this was useful. Its late.

Have you considered a high end inwall  ?

To my keyboard, I'll chalk your questions and comments up to the late hour in which you wrote them but encourage you to go back and re-read them.  Even better, next time you write something, read your words and ask yourself "do I have a point?".  If the answer is no or unclear to you, use the backspace key or the delete key and give it another shot.  This practice should serve you well in life and in less important activities like posting on internet sites.  

Cheers,

Jack

[David Ellis]

RICK: Actually Dave that's not my design but the owner did ask me about my experience with combining the XT woofer and OW1.

Sorry Rick, I thought this was your design.  I do remember you really enjoying the sound of the Vifa wood cone a few years back and figured this was your work.

The motor on the Vifa isn't a "simple" one and is closer to the SD motors used in the Scan-Speak line.

Indeed, I stand corrected.  I really didn't realize that Vifa used any copper/aluminum on their pole pieces.  The inductance of this driver is indeed lower than the standard Vifa units.  They surely did something in the motor.  However, the XT inductance is higher than the Scan units, and the XT voice coil is smaller.  My hunch is there is a shorting ring at the base of the pole piece.  Does this sound about right Rick?

Thanks for reading and posting Rick.  I are now educatd abot the Vifa XT  

This is one of the great parts about online discussion.  All of my comments or anyones comments are open for public scrutiny.  Hmmm, I suppose that's why more true commercial folks don't post online  

[David Ellis]

He is very upfront and careful not to overpromise and under-deliver

This is very true, and well said.  I have never conveyed my sentiment in this fashion.  It conveys my approach perfectly!

Well said,

[woodgab]

I don't know where to begin.  I wrote a few comments trying to offer what I perceive to be at hand for Dave's business.  I don't think it was that confusing, at least not entirely.  I'll clarify bellow.  The design I linked was that of Roman Bednarek.

First, I almost didn't make the comment on religion and am sorry to see it bothered you, Dave.  As pointed out, you aren't "in my face" about it and no, I am not alienated by your confession of Christianity.  I suppose the best way to redress my view about it is to pay heed to the sex, politics and religion rule.

Do you actually know people that wouldn't do business with anyone professing to be a Christian?

If there weren't much else to differentiate the product, someone being perhaps more overt than you in their proclaimation of Christianity, or any other religion, would lose business in my estimation.  I know, for instance, of one business that always answers the phones "Steve's ...., Jesus loves you".  Its part of their greeting.  I wouldn't recomend having people do that in your future phone center.

This is what I need to clarify.  I wrote:

-Don't underestimate the number of customers who are merely looking for XO recipes for their chosen drivers. This applies to the kit crowd. If I really like the OW1 and Seas drivers, does there have to be a proprietary premium on the XO, or will there be other free XO designs from the expanding internet community? Or, for that matter, are there other designs kit buyers will migrate to on the basis the XO designer's talents.

I said the first part with regard to kit pricing.  If the kit price were to rise significantly, you would see a breakout between customers who see the 1801b crossover as the end all and other customers who are simply looking to mate the Seas and the Hiquphon.  The latter will go off and get a different XO.

The other part about migration is nothing new.  All I meant to say is that there are many other kit designs out there among a seemingly empowered community.

I wrote:

If I really like the OW1 and Seas drivers, does there have to be a proprietary premium on the XO, or will there be other free XO designs from the expanding internet community?

Dave Ellis responded:

Good question! There are a couple of answers. I don't suspect anyone will have the gumption to copy the 1801 crossover and publicise it. Certainly there are many more appealing crossovers to copy. Many commercial products have a much better repuation than the 1801. However, am honored that you place the 1801 in a category worthy of this.

When I wrote that, I wasn't suggesting that the 1801b could be picked off free from the internet.  On the contrary, a XO of the two drivers could be done from scratch.  I don't know what category to place the 1801 in.  I need to hear it.

Cheers to all.  Darn, its late again.
Chris