How 'bout those tone controls??

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drphoto

How 'bout those tone controls??
« on: 12 Mar 2003, 03:42 am »
The general 'hi-fi' wisdom seems to be that tone controls are evil....causing such nasties as 'phase shifts' and 'degradation' of the precious signal.

But are they that bad? I'm mean if the tonal balance is poor, then does the rest matter? We are in a sense at the mercy of the choice of the recording engineer.

Andrew Lamb

How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #1 on: 12 Mar 2003, 04:29 am »
Quote
We are in a sense at the mercy of the choice of the recording engineer.


In my opinion, that is their right, along with the recording artist.
I figure that they intend it to sound a certain way, and that is their sound.
Who am I to tell them it's not correct or balanced?

That is what really makes good music as well, the quality of the recording or playing. If the CD is mastered well, then it should sound all the better, reinforcing the artists abilities.

Same goes for live concerts, although those are mostly geared towards making a lot of noise, I still figure it's only my business to enjoy the music produced.

Just my two cents.
Many may disagree with me.

Tyson

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #2 on: 12 Mar 2003, 05:12 am »
I almost got the EC case on my AVA Transcendence 7 preamp instead of the SL case.  The EC version has tone controls that are switched out of the circuit entirely if they are not being used.  Handy, but then I realized that I just don't have that many recordings that would use them, so I decided to save $$ and get the simpler setup.

Rob Babcock

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #3 on: 12 Mar 2003, 07:16 am »
So how do you like the Transcendence?  And how tough is it to live without remote control?

I know it may be a silly reason, but I'd almost be temped to got with the model with the tone controls to get the 17" chassis. :oops:

Anyway, I'm interested in the OmegaStar preamp, but I'm a bit apprehensive about not having RC for the volume, at least.

Tyson

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #4 on: 12 Mar 2003, 07:38 am »
Haven't had a remote control in the 2 channel rig for a very long time, so definitely don't miss it  :wink:

I really like the T7.  It reminds me of the AI modulus 3A quite a bit, but it has better bass and better microdynamics, and much better macrodynamics.  I think the Omega stuff is voiced slightly warmer than the Transcendance stuff.  The T7 is smooth, detailed, and musical, but not "zippy" sounding, or "in your face".  It suffers from less glare and hash than any solid state pre I've ever heard (maybe because it's a hybrid).  I like the fact that it doesn't "look" high end, sort of a "stealth" high fidelty piece  :D

nathanm

How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #5 on: 12 Mar 2003, 09:47 pm »
Quote from: Andrew Lamb
Quote
We are in a sense at the mercy of the choice of the recording
engineer.


In my opinion, that is their right, along with the recording artist. I figure that they intend it to sound a
certain way, and that is their sound. Who am I to tell them it's not correct or balanced?


You're the person who paid good money to listen to the disc that's who! :D  Heh!  You you do bring
up an interesting point which has long intrigued me.  Recorded music has the distinction of being one
of the few art forms where the end user has so much control over the presentation.  In other art
forms the artist has near-total control over what the audience perceives.  A painting in an art gallery
has few variables in regards to its presentation.  Lighting would be the main issue and then perhaps
surrounding walls. Same thing goes for sculpture.  A theater play or live music performance leaves
little control for the viewer\listener.  An author writes the same words everyone reading the book
sees.  A motion picture does not allow the viewer any adjustments.  Home movies would be the only
other art form where the end user has more control over the picture and sound.

Still, the end user cannot fundamentally alter the art, and I do not feel that any of the usual
adjustments made to an audio system compromise the work to the point of it being unrecognizable.
No that it isn't possible; certainly you could pipe the music through a fuzz pedal or pitch shifter, but
that's highly unlikely.  Since we cannot ever hope to know what the artist intended for us to hear
without speaking with them personally it seems only fair to be able to adjust the playback of the
reproduction to our taste.  A few little boosts or cuts to certain frequency bands does not seem to
undermine the intent of the artist in my opinion!

Isn't it ironic that audiophiles have this moral aversion to tone controls and yet they do everything
else besides to control\adjust\tweak the sound of their systems?  I find it humorous.  You aren't
supposed to have two tone knobs on your preamp because all your audiophile friends will laugh and
point fingers, but you can allegedly swap around cables all day which are supposedly altering the
frequency response.  Sounds like a "tone control" to me.  Not to mention speakers; on what pair of
speakers did the artist intend for you to listen to the music?  What kind of amp should you use?  How
big should the room be? I've never seen such "minimum system requirements" on a CD! They don't
make such demands of the listener.  The recording is open to adjustments!

Even recording studios take great pains to make their control rooms sound consistent, but there are
still going to be differences from one to the next.  So since there's no absolutely standard against
which to judge the recording I don't see where something as insignificant as a tone control should be
considered a fundamentally flawed device.

JohnR

How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #6 on: 12 Mar 2003, 10:10 pm »
But tone controls don't actually fix anything. They are too coarse.

massappeal85

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #7 on: 12 Mar 2003, 10:11 pm »
I'm gonna build ESPs hi-fi preamp with tone controls to go with an AKSA 55 I also hope to build (someday).

I don't intend for my system to be massively audiophile more then it is flexible given I'm still in highschool and plan to go college. So who knows where my system will end up, or in what kind of room. So, unless tone controls had some notoriously unreasonable degradtion to sound quality when in nuetral, which I don't think they do, I'm not gonna worry about it. I certianly don't dispel that tone controls may offer some level degration, but I doubt it outweighs the relief I get in turning down the treble on a harsh recording.

"Isn't it ironic that audiophiles have this moral aversion to tone controls and yet they do everything else besides to control\adjust\tweak the sound of their systems?"

Exactly.

fredgarvin

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toners
« Reply #8 on: 13 Mar 2003, 12:32 am »
Tone control definately comes in handy when listening to glaring recordings and many older vinyl releases with the rolled-off blues. Why anyone would prefer to listen to sh*t sound to preserve their "moral, aural purity" is beyond me. :roll:  Sometimes it makes sense to be practical. Although I rarely use them myself except with old vinyl. :mrgreen: Jeez, rely on an engineer...that takes the cake...

Rob Babcock

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #9 on: 13 Mar 2003, 12:45 am »
I don't use tone controls:  I simply have no need with my system.  But the best possible deal would probably be to have them in your preamp but have a bypass.  Once the room is adequately treated, etc., there usually isn't a lot of need for them, but I suppose a really bright recording or a really thin one could use a little help.  The Audio by Van Alstine preamps in the larger chassis incorporate this feature, as do a great many others.

As far as phase shift, etc., I think people need to take a deep breath and just take a step back.  C'mon, this is supposed to be fun!  If it sounds good to you, it is good.  I doubt you'll burn in hell for compromising the purity of the recording.  Lots of things are applied to the sound that can cause phase and spectral changes, but I would think a little phase error may be preferrable to highs burning into your head like a drill!  Especially with a recording that may have very high musical value but very poor recording quality.

massappeal85

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How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #10 on: 14 Mar 2003, 12:58 am »
Newb question. What are phase shifts?

JoshK

How 'bout those tone controls??
« Reply #11 on: 14 Mar 2003, 01:21 am »
Phase shifts:  think of a wave, there is the lip and the valley.  180º phase shift would be from the top of the lip to the bottom of the valley.  360º is the next wave.  90º is the median placement of the surfer. Well music is made up of a bunch of waves.  Lots of things in the electronic component chain can change the original wave sets. Think of the perfect system is the perfect set of waves.  Choppy sets (aka distortion) are cause by poor components.