[John Casler]

I know I reported on this before, but it just keeps getting better.

I have been further "fine tuning" my bass system (putty pinches) and this is far beyond the best bass I have ever heard.

It is "SICK" it is sooooo good.

While I need to dial it down just a touch the overall performance is beyond "ANY" bass I have heard, in any room, in 30 years of listening.

Now, I am not an Acoustical Engineer (no snickers please) but, in my room, the push/pull system has changed the world of bass, as I know it.

I just spent the last 1.5 hours going through cut after cut, of reference material and I am physically exhausted by the "emotional involvement" this foundational bass octave brings to the table,

Diana Krall
Led Zepplin
The DOORS
Hendrix
Bela Fleck
Steely Dan
Santana
Kodo Drums
The Eagles
CS&N
Dire Straits
Johnny Cash
Vivaldi
Carl Saunders
BAD PLUS
Heart
and many other cuts from compilation reference cds like the USHER, Bermeister # 2 & 3, the Focal, and a couple others.

I just couldn't stop

I have to say my pair of 626Rs and 4 LARGER subs sounded better and more real than any system I have heard anywhere!!

Now in addition to my "putty pinching", I also "FINALLY" ran all the speakers through the NHT x-over and High Passed the 626Rs at 80Hz.  I also Low Passed the Woofs up to 80Hz

Holy whatchamajumbolai!!!  

I threw on Hugh Maskela's "Coal Train", and I haven't been the same since

If you guys haven't heard this cut....GET IT!!!

I wish you all could hear what I'm hearing.

Is it "perfect"??  Nope, I still have to locate a couple loose rattles around the room, that can be a little distracting, but the gut punching bass is there, as well as the "delicate" bass.

While Flight of the Cosmic Hippo plays even lower than it ever did, the clean, delicate, 3-D depth I always "crow" about is still there.

The underlying foundation to Josh Groban's "you are here" (or there or Where You Are, something like that ) is Thunderously room shaking.  While it has always been there, it is now the whole foundational support to the piece.

The Push/Pull set up is also absolutley incredible at "envelopment".  That is the room is now "inervated" in every direction.  The Sound is enveloping, and Surrounding.

Now remember, I "sell" subwoofers, but let me tell you, if you want the best bass, my money says, get at least 2 (and 4 is better) and set them up in a direct, crossfire, (meaning you in the middle) Push/Pull and then tell me what you hear.

I don't care if they're VMPS or PMS (my ex-wife's favorite brand) subs, just try it.

You may have to play with the placement a bit, but be prepared to get your "BASS FREAK" on  

Your SUPER "BASS" Freak

JAC

[Q]

Thats quite a music selection you picked out there...im thinking we have similar tastes in music!...with the exception of your lack of blues in this list!  I'd love to hear that setup.   Question:  Do you find any of that bass to be directional?  I noticed that the stereo image i had with my big Legacy Focus was much better than with my other speakers using a single sub.  I found that the bass excited the room and setoff harmonics (or even the rattles that you mentioned), thereby making the bass very stereo..or directional..as opposed to what proponents of single sub systems would have you believe.  Question is, by making the subs bipolar, how does this affect the L/R presence of the bass, or do you find it to be directional at all?

Thanks
Q

[meilankev]

John,

Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to an IB-Sub such as the one at Mike Knapp's house here in Tampa?  He's got all the construction details on his site.  Granted, he and I usually listen to 2-channel music during our get-togethers, but on occasion, we fool around with DVDs.  As part of a Home Theater surround-sound system, it is absolutely breathtaking.

Last month, after months of pestering him, I finally persuaded him to utilize it with his 2-channel music.  Based on his reports, he is as giddy as a 10-year-old kid at his first MLB game.  Unlimited extension without a hint of distortion or flabbiness.  

For those who have an attic space above their listening room, it appears to be a wonderful alternative to box sub-woofers, regardless of how many are combined in the room.  If I understand IB-Subs correctly (which may not be true), it seems the room itself becomes the sub-woofer cabinet.

I'm just curious that if you've auditioned an IB-Sub, just how did your current setup compare?

Kevin

[John Casler]

Thats quite a music selection you picked out there...im thinking we have similar tastes in music!...with the exception of your lack of blues in this list!  I'd love to hear that setup.   Question:  Do you find any of that bass to be directional?  I noticed that the stereo image i had with my big Legacy Focus was much better than with my other speakers using a single sub.  I found that the bass excited the room and setoff harmonics (or even the rattles that you mentioned), thereby making the bass very stereo ...

Hi Q,

Yesssirree Bob, I am running the subs in stereo and it is totally directional when the bass is in a specific channel or stage section.

The BAD Plus CD is a good example.  The bass in the Nirvana cut (I think its "teen spirit" or some such) is on the right side of the soundstage.

There is another Jazz Cut off the Usher, disc that has the bass on the left side.

Then there is Diana Krall who has her bassist in the center most of the time or just slightly to one side or the other.

Yeah Bass imaging and stageing is accurate

[John Casler]

John,

Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to an IB-Sub such as the one at Mike Knapp's house here in Tampa?  He's got all the construction details on his site.  Granted, he and I usually listen to 2-channel music during our get-togethers, but on occasion, we fool around with DVDs.  As part of a Home Theater surround-sound system, it is absolutely breathtaking.

Last month, after months of pestering him, I finally persuaded him to utilize it with his 2-channel music.  Based on his reports, he is ...

Hi Kev,

No I can't say that I have heard a IB system yet, but have been told they are very good.

I would have trouble putting one in my condo  

My neighbors are probably already circulating a petition and checking the EarthQuake Insurance policy.

Plus it would be impossible to place  the acoustic center of the drivers, in line with the rest of the speakers, so I'd always be wondering about the phasing and wave launch.

This would only be a concern to me with the higher x-over points, that I am now using.

Is Mike (who I met briefly at the VMPS room in Vegas) running "stereo" IB?

I have a feeling that my current set up is probably in that same league for music, but with a little more fine tuning capability/flexibility.

Just had a thought "bubble up":

I wonder what "stereo" IB's in a front/back Push/Pull config would be like.

Now "THAT" is scary

[mac]

Is Mike (who I met briefly at the VMPS room in Vegas) running "stereo" IB?

Moi?  I'm running two pair of dipole woofers (4 12" drivers) in my setup.  Similar to IB in that there isn't a box but they also reduce room modes due to their radiation pattern and the way they load the room.  Cheers, mac (aka Mike).

[Campindog]

I've played with stereo boxed subs (2 /12's) in push pull configuration with good results, but I'm hoping my IB will put them to shame. I should have my media room completed in about 60 days.. The wait is killin me...  I'll have 2 pair of 15's in the wall directly behind my RM30's. Should be interesting. Maybe the next time John is in the bay area he could compare stereo IB's to push/pull largers.. and maybe help with a little fine tuning  

[John Casler]

I've played with stereo boxed subs (2 /12's) in push pull configuration with good results, but I'm hoping my IB will put them to shame. I should have my media room completed in about 60 days.. The wait is killin me...  I'll have 2 pair of 15's in the wall directly behind my RM30's. Should be interesting. Maybe the next time John is in the bay area he could compare stereo IB's to push/pull largers.. and maybe help with a little fine tuning  

Sounds good to me

I'm thinking that Stereo IB front and back in a "push/pull" would probably offer some of the "ULTIMATE BASS" for the buck.

What with the Wilson XS costing $19K or so, the cost of 4 IBs would be fractional.

But @ $699 each (plus any upgrades) the LARGERs offer the advantage of "adjustable placement" (that is the front channels can be placed on the same acoustic plane as the "mains") and the "satellittes" can be moved around to "fine tune" for room dimensions.

The damping can also be adjusted.  

This whole experiment has me "thinking and re-thinking" bass creation and management systems.

[John Casler]

Is Mike (who I met briefly at the VMPS room in Vegas) running "stereo" IB?

Moi?  I'm running two pair of dipole woofers (4 12" drivers) in my setup.  Similar to IB in that there isn't a box but they also reduce room modes due to their radiation pattern and the way they load the room.  Cheers, mac (aka Mike).

Hi Mike,

Did we meet in Las Vegas?  Hope so.

I was actually refering to Mike Knapp from Home Theater Talk.

[JeffB]

I am afraid I don't quite understand the configuration.  I need a picture.
Is it like this?

 Sub -->xxxxxxxxxxx<-- Sub



 Sub -->xxxxxxxxxxx<-- Sub


The arrows point in the direction the subwoofer is firing.
The xxxx just represent empty space.

Does anybody know how to put in spaces that are not stripped out?

[doug s.]

I am afraid I don't quite understand the configuration.  I need a picture.
Is it like this?

 Sub -->xxxxxxxxxxx<-- Sub



 Sub -->xxxxxxxxxxx<-- Sub


The arrows point in the direction the subwoofer is firing.
The xxxx just represent empty space.

Does anybody know how to put in spaces that are not stripped out?

that's correct, how the subs are firing.  and, the listening position is facing one set, the set that's with the monitors.  the subs behind you should be wired out of phase w/the front subs & monitors.  so, when the cones of the subs/monitors are moving towards you, the cones of the rear subs are moving away from you.

re: your "not stripped out" question, i am not sure what you mean...

doug s.

[John Casler]

Hope this works.....

Here is a Q&D (quick and dirty) drawing.

While not proportional, it shows the firing angles.



The Driver side of the sub faces the listener.

[JoshK]

John did you stagger the distances to the listening position so as to not get all the same nodes lining up?

[ctviggen]

How big is your room?  What are driving the subs with?  How do you go about adjusting putty on a Larger?  Play a song, take off putty, listen for improvement, repeat?

[zybar]

How big is your room?  What are driving the subs with?  How do you go about adjusting putty on a Larger?  Play a song, take off putty, listen for improvement, repeat?

Bob,

The way you described above is the only way I know of to properly tune VMPS speakers.

George

[ctviggen]

Thanks, George.  Hey, I'm going to call you tonight to set up an appointment for Saturday.

[John Casler]

John did you stagger the distances to the listening position so as to not get all the same nodes lining up?

Not intentionally.  I am closer to the rear subs.

I am not sure how this "affects" nodes of the "total" system.

It may "complicate" them, or ameliorate them.

I also may have happened upon a "lucky" placement distance, since obviously if the subs are 12 feet apart (front to rear) it would be different than subs placed 20 feet apart.

Hopefully a few others will experiment in other shaped rooms (I know Jon Gubman will be doing so soon) and report their results.

[John Casler]

How big is your room?  What are driving the subs with?  How do you go about adjusting putty on a Larger?  Play a song, take off putty, listen for improvement, repeat?

Hi Bob,

The "basic" room dimensions are 30 x 20, but the left back opens into a Kitchen, a good part of the left side opens into a large Foyer, so the system sees a much larger space than 30 x 20.

Speakers are set up on the 30 foot (long) wall.

In "tuning" the putty, I play familiar "bass heavy" musical material rather loud and listen for clarity, boominess, 3-D depth, and weight.

I then methodically remove a fingernail full of putty (smaller than a lentil, larger than a sesame seed) until I either hear the sound I want, or it starts to get worse (as in woolier, or boomier) then I add back until I acheive the best I heard.  This is usually just adding back a single lentil.

I use

Flight of the Cosmic Hippo = Bella Fleck
Duende - Blacklight Syndrome (opening bass run)
Smells Like Teen Spirit - Bad Plus
Several Diana Krall cuts (John Clayton bassist)
Private Investigations - Dire Straits
and several others

All of the above have bass with specific qualities.  I tune with my ear to get those qualities from my listening position.


I had to "retune" these four which wasn't too bad at all, but I am still in the process, since I also have a x-over with phase, boundary, and x-over frequency controls.

Tuning in this case, also consists of moving the rear speakers around, closer to the rear wall, further away, converging them, and so on, as well as the putty pinching.

[ctviggen]

Hmmm...I'll have to redo my putty (and other settings) now that the speakers have broken in and I've moved them somewhat.

[Roc]

Dear John,

A few years back Dr. Bart Billings conducted studies for the U.S. government on the effects of low frequency sound on humans.

The results are not good.  High intensity low frequency sound can have profound physical and psycological effects on humans, even with relatively short exposure.

As a friend, and for your own health, get rid of your subs!

Please list price and availability.

Dave

P.S.  Bart is also a speaker mfg'r.  He makes the Omnisonic brand.  Awesome for theater, stadium's, PA systems.