Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's

JohnR · « **Reply #60 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 05:47 am »

There are no results yet...

Phat Phreddy · « **Reply #61 on:** 19 Mar 2003, 08:15 am »

OK I have got a couple of minutes so I will hit another one...

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This is a error correction strategy, called automatic-repeat-request (ARQ) scheme with a majority-logic, in this case repeated reading. With this scheme in place, it can effectively clear most of hardware misreadings caused by vibrations, defective laser head etc or marginal pressing errors on the CD.

OK agreed... I still dont know if I would call this error correction as it is REREAD'ing repeatedly until it has reached a >50% provable perfect read on the bits from the disk... I would call this error supression as it still does not insert false data that it 'thinks' or assumes should be there. However thats simply semantics but...

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So to check your hardware quality, don't use it as it mask misreadings of a CDROM drive, unless you can force it read only once. But it's good to use while actual copying to eliminate the effect of random laser pick-up errors.

Now perhaps its me being dense but I dont get this (sorry I am honestly not trying to argue here).. First you state initially that this is a good method of extraction that clears most extraction errors... Then you state it should not be used to mask (I would say eliminate or reestablish) read errors when extracting... Why would you want it to read only once ?? I can see a speed argument but thats moot really... Are you assuming something to do with reburning or using more CD's with this inherant read issue as a medium to store an audio archive ??

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In music CD drive, I don't think the average CD players will have complex algorithms to do a good error corrections so that the chance is that all corrections are dependant on the drive. Open a CD player then you will know that there is no computing chips there are able to do so. Therefore, errors will be passed to DAC and result in distortions.

100% agreement... This is why I rip with the best DAE extraction mechanism I can (EAC) and then I shun the CD as anythimg more than a backup medium... Why risk these errors reading again once you have it done right (and have all that hassle of handling CD's)...

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According to what you described, it is true that it does not make use of the error correcting codes embedded in the data, however, as said above, it implments an ARQ scheme on top of that.

In my opinion, after that, the software should further correct errors caused by CD pressing, scratchs etc, making use of the embbeded error correcting codes on the CDs before it burn into a new CD. This way, the copied CD will be cleaner, which will benifit the average CD players that do not do sophisticated error correction.

To my mind the ARQ scheme is the most valid means to test whether the raw data is repeatedly the same... I would be curious to see what happens when you filecompare 2 SPDIF captures on a CD player that plays a vanilla CDR and one that plays a black CDR... I think we are agreeing that logically this is all down to the read errors involved but personally I would rather eliminate them (or at least know where a sector cannot be reliably defined as 100% repeatable) and be satisfied that the rip was done to the highest accuracy possible...

I should point out that in the system I use I have a 640 GB RAID5 array hung off of my home network to store ripped CD's and DVD's (as well as be an X10 server / cam monitor / etc) so that I can jukebox them around the home and in my HT... All ripped audio is kept losslessly with APE (Monkeys audio) files... For me all this business about player read errors is moot if EAC gets the data 100% read error free... If not, it sure as hell does a better job than any realtime extraction system I know of as it allows the 80 something reads on any bad sector to establish its data as mentioned a few posts back...

None of this though is even touching why 2 SPDIF streams which should be providing indenticle 'transport' functions can be determined apart... Then we have to look into the timing clocks and jitter arguments... That is as they say, another whole kettle of fish...

Greg Erskine · « **Reply #62 on:** 24 Mar 2003, 06:26 am »

Hi all,

I've been playing around with black CDs for a couple of weeks now and on my system, (or is it my hears,) I cannot determine a difference between the original, a silver copy or a black copy.

My hifi system is pretty run-of-the-mill, excluding the AKSA of course!

I have made about 20 black copies so far and have 100% success rate while I was having trouble with a batch of silver TDKs.

I will still use the black CDs from now on as they look good.

Greg

Larry · « **Reply #63 on:** 26 Mar 2003, 10:58 am »

If interested in how a writer makes differences to the copy, here is a link from Yamaha explaining its technology, called Audio Master quality recording. CRW-F1 is the model mentioned in Gary's article which sounds good.

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product/computer/extra/products/crwf1/index.html and look for Advanced Audio Master Quality Recording mode.

Larry · « **Reply #64 on:** 26 Mar 2003, 11:12 am »

Hi, Malcolm,

I have got some Imation black CDR from Officeworks. Do you know where I can get some vinyl CD in Sydney?

I've got a Yamaha External CDRW, after some hesitations

That's all your fault to start all this, however I should thank you for opening a new area for me to kill time.

Greg Erskine · « **Reply #65 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 07:56 am »

Larry,

I saw some CDs that look like the old vinyl records at JB Hifi at Paramatta, is that what you are looking for? Is so, why?

Greg

Malcolm Fear · « **Reply #66 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 12:01 pm »

Hi Larry
I saw some vinyl cd's at Big W. Why on earth would you want them? They look awful. They don't sound as good as blacks.
BTW, did you like the Imation? Did you hear a difference?

Larry · « **Reply #67 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: Greg Erskine

Larry,

I saw some CDs that look like the old vinyl records at JB Hifi at Paramatta, is that what you are looking for? Is so, why?

Greg

Thanks for the info. I will go and have a look as I am not far from Parramatta.

At this stage, I like to have some and do some tests. In the end, if it does nothing in music terms, I need CDRs for normal uses anyway so it would not hurt.

Larry · « **Reply #68 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 02:22 pm »

Quote from: Malcolm Fear

Why on earth would you want them? They look awful.

I think they look nice to audiophiles' eyes. Look at this.

Quote from: Malcolm Fear

They don't sound as good as blacks.

I thought vinyl CD is a black CD with vinyl-look print at the back. No?

Quote from: Malcolm Fear

BTW, did you like the Imation? Did you hear a difference?

I have no opinion yet. On my system I don't hear a difference. My CD player sits on 3 cone feets plus a foot block over Nero Marquina above an inner tube and another Nero Marquina on top of it. By the way, do you use Corian for its peculiar property? The Nero Marquina tiles (looking like manmade marbles) are normally used for floors, that I happened to find conveniently from a shop and are readily shaped in rectangulars just good for CD players. It is not as thick as Corian for kitchens, maybe half of them.

I used so far only two tracks, track 3 and 5 from Chesky "The Ultimate Demonstration Disc - Guide to Critical Listening". What tracks did you use that you could hear differences?

Greg Erskine · « **Reply #69 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 04:45 pm »

Larry,

You may be disappointed. I saw them when I was looking for black CDs, so from memory they are not black. They are silver with black plastic and label on top. They weren't cheap either.

At Paramatta, I found Officeworks and Jaycar have black CDs. The Jaycar Laser ones are only 32x and have a very small silver window that you cannot write on properly. (AU$29 for 20) The newer 48x Laser ones are better. Officeworks had the Imation ones for AU$23 or AU$24 for 20. (I think). I didn't buy any so I can't comment further.

Greg

Malcolm Fear · « **Reply #70 on:** 27 Mar 2003, 08:19 pm »

Hi Larry.

>>Corian.
I used to use an innertube then a shelf, then the CD player on top. I found that a solid oak shelf was a tiny bit better than a piece of granite.
I bought the Corian and it actually sounds better than any other shelf material, that I have tried. It is very dense. It does not ring (like granite).

Larry · « **Reply #71 on:** 30 Mar 2003, 11:58 am »

Quote from: Greg Erskine

Larry,

You may be disappointed. I saw them when I was looking for black CDs, so from memory they are not black. They are silver with black plastic and label on top. They weren't cheap either.

At Paramatta, I found Officeworks and Jaycar have black CDs. The Jaycar Laser ones are only 32x and have a very small silver window that you cannot write on properly. (AU$29 for 20) The newer 48x Laser ones are better. Officeworks had the Imation ones for AU$23 or AU$24 for 20. (I think). I didn't buy any so I can't comment further.

Greg

I got a few vinyl CDs. Vinyl CDs are blue CDs with back on top. AU$11.99 for 10. I learnt sometime back that blue CDs are better than sliver/gold CDs for music. (no black CDs then)

Larry · « **Reply #72 on:** 30 Mar 2003, 12:14 pm »

Quote from: Malcolm Fear

It does not ring (like granite)

This makes sense for the application and a very applicable criteria for selecting shelf.

Quote from: Malcolm Fear

I found that a solid oak shelf was a tiny bit better than a piece of granite.

Next time when I come acroos a piece of oak, I wouldn't be able to resist bringing it home.

How thick of it works for you?

By the way, I went to the meeting of NSW audio club this afternoon. This session was a cable tweak session. On a $17,000 amp + $16,000 speakers driven by an SACD source, any touches on cables -- power/interconnect/speaker -- show obvious differences.

If I could solve the vibration problem with my GK-1, I would bring it to next month's meeting, which is a DIY session.

Malcolm Fear · « **Reply #73 on:** 8 Apr 2003, 04:21 am »

There has been an update to the original Genesis Loudspeakers white paper on "Black CD's".

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CDsII.pdf