Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's

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Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« on: 11 Mar 2003, 08:32 pm »
I was passed this URL

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CDs1.pdf

It discusses using black CDR's to make copies of your original cd's and how the black CD sounds better than the original. I have tried it. It is true. I have done a blind test with my son. He picked it in 3 seconds.

Dare I say that it takes the AKSA experience even further?

Black cdr's are available in Australia from Officeworks (Imation brand) or by them (Laser brand) on the net from

http://www.cdpool.com.au/cdr/#

They both sound great. The Laser brand have a silver window that makes it easier to write on.

Oz_Audio

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #1 on: 11 Mar 2003, 09:35 pm »
Malcolm,

What CD recorder do you use?  I don't have one yet.

And how does it sound compared to a normal CD or DVD player?

Mark

Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #2 on: 11 Mar 2003, 09:58 pm »
I have an LG burner.
My hi fi cd player is a Rega Planet 2000.
I burn the cd's on the LG and listen to them in the Rega.
I don't generally listen to music through the computer.
(I hope that answers your question)

Oz_Audio

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #3 on: 11 Mar 2003, 10:11 pm »
Thanks,
Interestng that the sound from a CDWR is that good.  Also much cheaper than a stand alone.

Mark

SamL

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #4 on: 12 Mar 2003, 12:53 am »
Hi Malcolm,

Have you compare the black CD with the gold & silver mix blank CD from TDK? Just wonder which is better.

Sam

Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #5 on: 12 Mar 2003, 01:23 am »
I have tried all types. Silver, silver and gold, gold. I try to always use Kodak or TDK (less throw aways), but Kodak seem to be out of the business.
I've never heard a difference in ordinary cd types.
These black cd's are something else. Immediately noticeable that the copy is better than the original.

karthikn

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #6 on: 12 Mar 2003, 02:58 am »
This brand is supposed to be very good too:

http://www.mitsuicdr.com/technology/cd/index.html

EchiDna

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #7 on: 12 Mar 2003, 03:44 am »
ok stupid question time....

say the original disk is already black.... then can you tell the difference between original and copy?  :?:

and can you suggest just how the copy is 'better' without going into excess detail?

:beer:

Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #8 on: 12 Mar 2003, 04:54 am »
>>Stupid Question
I think it stops stray light bouncing around inside the cd (a bit like those thick green pens that you ran around the outside and inside enge of a CD).

I would imagine a copy from black to black would be no different.
How long before "Kind of Blue" is released on "black"?
A whole new market, waiting to happen.

Tyson

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #9 on: 12 Mar 2003, 05:07 am »
What would be cool is if there were labels that made the top look like a record.

Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #10 on: 12 Mar 2003, 05:42 am »
>>What would be cool is if there were labels that made the top look like a record.

Verbatim actually put them out, called vinyl cd or something.
They look like 45's. Tacky really.
The black cd's look like they are black all the way through.

Tyson

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #11 on: 12 Mar 2003, 05:53 am »
Yes, black all the way through, with the vinyl looking label on top.  would be very cool, IMO.

Larry

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #12 on: 13 Mar 2003, 12:51 am »
Quote from: Malcolm Fear
I was passed this URL

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Black_CDs1.pdf

It discusses using black CDR's to make copies of your original cd's and how the black CD sounds better than the original. I have tried it. It is true. I have done a blind test with my son. He picked it in 3 seconds.


It's a good article on this subject.

When I first learnt few years ago that some Singaporean audiophiles could tell the difference of a copied CD from an orginal CD, I was very much surprised. However, after second thought, I understood it's possible. When thinking as a computer programmer, it's impossble as the data on CDs are always error free unless damaged while when thinking as a telecommunication engineer, it's possible as there is always errors in media. (From then on, I listen seriously to people who say they could hear something unbelievable.)

The author of the article shares his findings which is useful to other readers, but some of his explanations to what he observed are not quite correct and some are arguable. For example, using the linear velocity and angular velocity to explain the timing errors introduced into music is not right. The mechanical velocity variations may cause laser pickup errors but not music timing errors. Jitter is not encoded this way. The jitter people talk about in audiophile circles is not originated from this and it's about waveform degradation of digital clocks. The linear velocity of harddiscs is not the main reason why a harddisc is more reliable for data storage.

All storage media would cause some errors to the data, due to dust, imperfect manufacture, fingerprints, optical pickup mechanism, EMI, vibration etc. There being errors does not mean that data can not stored and retrieved free of errors. The technology to ensure "perfect" recording is error correction technology. The reason that harddiscs and CDROMs is practically free of errors in an error prone environment is that they use more sophisticated error correction techniques than music CDs, because computer data must be practically  free of errors but music CDs can tolerate some errors.

I give a very simple example to show how errors can be corrected.

If the original signal is "2468", it can be stored as "2222444466668888" on a CD. When there is one error, say, the picked up signal is "2222434466668888". We know that the "3" can not appear at that position and it must be a "4" there. So the data can be recovered as "2222444466668888" with confidence and the original signal can be reconstructed as "2468". This is in the capability of this error correction scheme. What happens if there are two errors like "2222433466668888"? In this case, "4334" could be "4444" or "3333". So an error will be reported but not corrected. The orignal signal becomes "2*68" where * is an reported error. Now, how to handle this error will very much depend on individual manufacturers. Some would just skip it, so it becomes "2068"; some will filled it with the previous one, so it becomes "2268", which is closer to the original; some may decide to use the average of the previous one and the following one to fill it, so it becomes "2468", good guess. This is called error concealment technique. This is also why some players sound different from others. (There are some other causes too) If the errors can be corrected, which is a standardised techinique for all manufacturers, you hear the same music; If errors can not be corrected but have to be concealed, which is not a standardised techinique and up to manufacturers to innovate, you hear different music from different CD players; In this case, low cost design may just skip the error while high cost design may try to put in a sophisticated algorithm to conceal errors; if the errors even cannot be concealed, the CD is considered as damaged and the CD player may refuse to play.

On harddiscs and CDROMs, to enhance the error correction capability, the signal may be stored as "22222444446666688888" so that it can correct 2 errors.

The above is just an intuitive example. The music CDs use much more complex error correction schemes and CDROMs for computer files use even more sophisticated error correction schemes than music CDs. (This is not about the physical media but how the data are represented on the same CD media.)

In addition, stored data/music on pressed music CD, music on CD Recordable, data files on CD Recordable, CD-RW, CDROM and harddisc are embodied slightly differently, physically and logically. Logic here means the representations of the data. This explains why some old players do not play copied CDs because old CD player may only handle pressed CDs and could not "understand" the physical and logical structures of copied music on CD Recordable or CD-RW.

The quality control of pressing music CDs will result in different amounts and patterns of errors on CDs. That's why some Japanease or German pressing sounds better than American or Asian pressing for the same album.

Because the author did not understand the causes correctly, that's why he did not get the expected results by burning direct from a CDROM reader to a CD Writer.

I don't go into all details but if someone asks specific questions, I can elaborate further.

However, the process to create a good copy of a CD given in the article is sound; people can follow that. He says that you should use a good quality CD-RW but did not give a process to check the quality of CDROM reader or CD writer. Here I add a process to ensure you have a good quality CDROM driver or CD writer for music CD reading and writing.

1) Check reading quality

- put a music CD in the driver; (Do not use a data CD; data CDs are treated differently and the data on data CDs can be read as if there were no errors due to powerful error correction behind the scene)
- use a music track ripping software, like Adaptec EasyCD, to extract the music track into a WAV file on harddisc. (Must save as WAV file type!) Do this 2 or 3 times and save them with different filenames, eg. track1a.wav; track1b.wav; track1c.wav; Because some errors are random, it's good to try reading the same track several times;
- open "Command Prompt" from "Programs -> Accessories";
- use the command "comp" to compare the files; type "comp track1a.wav track1b.wav"; (This is true on Windows 2000 Pro, try if it works on your Windows. If not, post your Windows version and I may find a way for you to do the same;) it will report if there are differences between these files; If yes, you should consider not use this drive for music, but for computer files, it may be fine.

2) Check writing quality

- write the same music tracks to 2 or 3 CDs; (Must be music tracks, not computer files; try a few tracks at the same time as the writer may perform differently writing at different locations;)
- then put them into a driver with no reading errors and follow the process of reading quality check; if there are differences between tracks on these written CDs, you should consider not use this writer for music.

(On my computer, my old CDROM drive reads in music tracks differently every time while my DVDROM driver can read in music tracks exactly the same every time. The CDROM is still able to play music but certainly I listen to slightly different music every time  :nono: )

SamL

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #13 on: 13 Mar 2003, 01:30 am »
You can skip step one with the correct CD reading software. Try EAC - Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

Some say writing at slower speed will minimise write error. I tried it and can't really hear the difference. With new CPU, memory and bus seed of today PC, this may no longer a problem.

Sam

Larry

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #14 on: 13 Mar 2003, 02:06 am »
Quote from: SamL
You can skip step one with the correct CD reading software. Try EAC - Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/


This CD reading software does a very different job for a different purpose from the step one of checking reading quality and it cannot tell what the step one tries to tell.

This type of the software tries to correct the erorrs while reading. That's why the author found different software sounds differently.

The step one tries to check the hardware reading quality before any touchs on the music by software. If to check CDROM drive's quality, do step one and avoid using any software like this, otherwise the results touched by this type of software have to be interpreted differently. The errors reported by this type of software may not be caused by the reading CDROM drives, in the other hand, errors caused by reading may not be reported, so that it does not tell how well the CDROM drives or CD writers do the reading.

Larry

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #15 on: 13 Mar 2003, 02:54 am »
Quote from: SamL

Some say writing at slower speed will minimise write error. I tried it and can't really hear the difference.


This doesn't mean there is no difference or others cannot hear it. There are many reasons one individual can and another cannot.

Quote from: SamL

With new CPU, memory and bus seed of today PC, this may no longer a problem.


These are irrelevant to error problems in question. No matter how powerful the computers are, there are errors then there are errors. The techniques in music CD standards have limits on the error correction capability. If the errors are beyond those limits, no one can correct it. If the information is lost due to uncorrectable errors, no way to recover it by any means. This has been proved with an information theorem by Shannon in 1948.

So what people can do is try to confine the errors within those limits at the error sources. Otherwise we have to suffer degraded music quality.

However, a powerful computer can help conceal the errors better if good algorithms are found. But, no matter how well the errors can be concealed, we still hear something different from what we suppose to hear. Whether one can tell the difference by listenning is another issue.

Malcolm Fear

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #16 on: 13 Mar 2003, 03:39 am »
SamL wrote:
You can skip step one with the correct CD reading software. Try EAC - Exact Audio Copy.
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

EAC is very usual for reading CD's with bad TOC (copy protected music cd's) - but that's another story.

SamL

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #17 on: 13 Mar 2003, 03:45 am »
Well, EAC is known to be the most accurate grabbing software in town. Do a search on audioasylum on EAC and see what others think about it.
I am lazy person and automated software is always better than a manual process.

Sam

PJ

Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #18 on: 13 Mar 2003, 09:46 am »
Seems like a load of crap to me.

Apart from the black disc idea, a lot of the info in that document is IMO, false.

Audio an Data are read/interpreted differently. They are however not stored differently. They are both stored as binary digital. A HDD has no "timing" when it comes to its use, unlike an audio CD. A HDD has no "clock".

The chances of a CD-ROM misreading a bit are so slim, that it essentially never happens. Take a look at some cd-roms error rates...

You could maybe convince me that copies sound different from the original..but not for some of the reasons he mentioned.

Larry

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Improve your listening experience - BLACK CD's
« Reply #19 on: 13 Mar 2003, 10:07 am »
Quote from: SamL
Well, EAC is known to be the most accurate grabbing software in town. Do a search on audioasylum on EAC and see what others think about it.
I am lazy person and automated software is always better than a manual process.

Sam


To clarify, use EAC in actual coping, which can handle errors caused by dust or fingerprints etc. However, don't use it when you check quality of your CDROM drive or CD writer.