Ground loop and dirty power line

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thomaspf

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« on: 14 Jan 2005, 11:39 pm »
Hi,

I have asked this here before but still have not succeeded to kill the 60Hz noise from the transformers of SP1.7 / 9B-ST my combo.

This is a question to the community and to James in particular. While I understand that Bryston does not recommend line filters I wonder wether I could try a balanced power converter to deal with my HUM problems.

http://www.transcendentsound.com/power_supply.htm

Anyone has experience with this? Any reason I should not try this?

Cheers

    Thomas

jradley

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #1 on: 17 Jan 2005, 11:43 am »
Hi,

I guess you could try the power conditioner you mention, but looking at the specs its max rating is 8A, which I suspect is a but low for a fully loaded 9B.

I may have missed your original post about the ground loop, but do you get the hum with just the 9B and SP1.7 connected together with no other devices (except speakers of course). Also, is the hum dependant on the volume setting or is it constant no matter what volume. One last question, are you running the 9B balanced or using single ended phono connectors ?

Armed with the above info I may be able to make some suggestions.

Cheers,

John

James Tanner

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #2 on: 17 Jan 2005, 01:01 pm »
Thanks for the help John - sounds like you asked all the right questions.

james

thomaspf

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #3 on: 17 Jan 2005, 07:39 pm »
Hi and thanks for the reply.

It is really transformer hum and not noise in the audio path. It is independent of the volume and it occurs as soon as I turn both devices on with or without the speakers connected. Connecting or disconnecting any devices does not change it. I have both devices plugged into the same outlet.

If I use the SP1.7 with my headphone amplifier it is dead silent. So, is the 9B-ST if I drive it directly from a sound card.

As soon as I turn on both the transformers start vibrating and emit a combined 34db hum which is a little annoying to have as a noise floor.

Good point about the 8A limitation. How about any of these units then

http://www.b-p-t.com/products.shtml
http://www.equitech.com/products/consumer/modelq.html

However, my question is not really about a particular brand but about the application of a balanced power converter to kill the hum.

Cheers

    Thomas

jradley

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #4 on: 18 Jan 2005, 10:26 am »
Hi Thomas,

OK, so the signal path is clean, but the transformers emit a physical hum.

How strange !

I think it's fair to say that's not normal, and has me stumped as to exactly what the cause could be (it's certainly not what I thought it might be). It would be interesting to know if they still do it with no interconnect between the SP1.7 and the 9B, though it won't help me answer your question.

I'm not sure about the balanced power supply question either. Perhaps you could borrow one from a local friendly dealer to try it out and see what happens.

Perhaps James could ask one of his engineering team to shed some light on this as I'm really not sure.

Cheers,

John

ScottMayo

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #5 on: 18 Jan 2005, 02:48 pm »
>As soon as I turn on both the transformers start vibrating and emit a combined 34db hum which is a little annoying to have as a noise floor. ...


All power transformers are prone to hum, but 34db (@1m?) is too loud. Maybe the transformer is defective or loose - maybe someone dropped it, maybe it got overcooked at one point, maybe it was just a plain old manufacturing defect. In any case, it's nothing you should have to live with, not in this equipment, IMHO. Your warranty is your friend.

But experiment, before you go that route. Make sure you haven't plugged the amp into a UPS by mistake, or anything, for that matter, except a wall socket. Plug in something else with a power transformer into the same socket and see if that hums. Try it in different wall sockets. Try the filtering equipment. Open the amp and carefully put a very heavy weight (a non-conductive, non-magnetic one please) right on the transformer and see if that mutes it. Look for a loose mounting or loose case parts. Make sure you aren't sharing a power line with, say, 20A worth of other equipment - maybe the amp is starving for power and that makes the trans work hard. Make sure someone isn't running MRI equipment right behind the wall of your sterero room, and you aren't in direct line of transmission of, say, a military-strength radar facility. :-)

There's no point in 4-zeros-right-of-the-decimal-THD if you can't hear the blasted music. If these two units (and only these two units), always hum when connected to each other, regardless of where and how you plug them in, then I'm *certain* the engineers at Bryston will want to take these units apart and get to the bottom of it. As a long time Bryston owner and someone who mucks around with circuits, I can tell you that they will be very interested in Why.

thomaspf

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jan 2005, 05:24 pm »
Tell me  more about the starving. The wiring in my house is a bit peculiar but I do have a dedicated outlet in my garage that is directly next to the switch board.

If I interpret the starving argument correctly I should be able to connect the equipment to this outlet and see whether it works better. Also if the line is carrying too much load then a balanced converter would not help.

I agree the level of hum is counter to a high resolution system.

Cheers

  Thomas

thomaspf

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Ground loop and dirty power line
« Reply #7 on: 1 Mar 2005, 05:41 am »
I finally resolved the hum and the starving theory led me to the right solution.

I recently experimented with digital equalization to tame some strong low frequency resonances in my listening room. I replugged the amp and processor multiple times to rewire the setup and at some point I realized the hum was gone.

Unfortunately it came back a few days later but this got me investigating the whole cabling from the breaker box to this particular wall outlet. I eventually removed the receptacle from the wall and found it to have spring type contacts that where only partially functional since the plastic case was broken.

I ordered a Hubbell 8300I wall receptacle which provides much more confident contact via solid screws and the problem has not resurfaced.

Cheers

   Thomas