[KJ]

smweber2,

Welcome to AC!  Glad to see another Wisconsinite.
 
-KJ

[Levi]

Have you been to Argyle, WI?

smweber2,

Welcome to AC!  Glad to see another Wisconsinite.
 
-KJ

[KJ]

Have you been to Argyle, WI?

Can't say I have.  Do they make socks there?  

-KJ

[Levi]

Have you been to Argyle, WI?

Can't say I have.  Do they make socks there?  

-KJ

It is a small town in WI, You won't find it in the map

[thomaspf]

When you followed my posts on the future of the SP1.7 you can probably guess that neither option 1 or 2 looks like a promising product for me.

Option 1: A mixed mode player with digital out for PCM and analog for DSD is pretty strange. You end up paying for two set of DACs. Since the SP1.7 does not sport a master clock input or output it's hard to understand how this could result in a truly high experience for PCM. The SP1.7 clock recovers its word clock directly form the digital input while the BP26 uses an asynchronous sample rate converter which by its very nature converts differents samples each time you play a track.

Option 2: That is a crowded space and the timing is not very good. While a 20 year waranty is interesting the history has tought customers that the digital formats are changing. Even the universal players of this year will be obsolete next year when DD+/DTS+ and HD-DVD/Blue Ray comes along. Online music downloads are the fastest growing segment of the industry and you do not need any discs for that. There are now $500 universal players with 1394 and HDMI on the market that will work just fine as a transport. Just replace those in 2 years when all the new formats have settled down.


Which leads me to the SP1.7.....

Personally I would like to see a bigger upgrade in 5 areas here.


1. Jitter:
Add a word clock output for the traditional synchronous digital interfaces AES/EBU S/PDIF and support for asynchronous playback for the more modern digital interfaces (1394, USB, Ethernet)

2. Computer support:
Add an Ethernet interface and support DLNA streaming.
Add a USB2 interface and implement asynchronous mode where the  word clock in the DAC is master for the playback. Silver disc are going away and computers will become a major digital source.

3. Analog output quality:
While I like the sound of the SP1.7 newer units have made quite some progress here.

THD+Noise: Less than 0.006% in DSP modes; Less than 0.0025% in Bypass mode 20Hz to
20kHz at maximum output level.
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 105dB in DSP Modes; 110dB in 2ch Bypass Mode ; 22kHz bandwidth, Ref. 1kHz at
maximum output level

A good more contemporary target would be
THD+Noise less than 0.0009%
DNR 117db
SNR >120db

4. CE digital interfaces:
Add 1394 support including DVD-A and SACD. (support for async mode)
Add HDMI 1.2 with DVD-A / SACD support

5. DSD support:
Whether this will be a long term survivor I don't know but the format has accumulated some interesting material

Cheers

          Thomas

[BachToRock]

I would love to see a multi format player with excellent internal DACS and a built in Volume contol so you could connect directly to a power amp... some of the best sound I have heard was always with the least amount of connections and components in the signal path.
Right now I am using a DENON DVD-9000 which is close to the ideal unit... it has the fantastic Burr Brown PCM-1704 DACS and Bryston-like build quality... through the SONY TA-P9000ES 5 channel ANALOG preamp it produces the best 5 channel sound I have heard and the 2 channel sound is excellent with the 1704's inplemented in Dual Differential.
James... a piece like the TA-P9000ES would also be a consideration... it is obviously very desireable because they sell for more used than they were new!
It is similar to the BP-25 with discrete channel blocks... here is a picture of the inside:

[DukeTogo]

James,

I would have to agree with many of the pessimistic comments about the CD-player/transport idea, ... I'm sure Bryston could make a bang-up unit, but I think that you guys might be better putting your energy and talents into an external DAC/digital switching unit, with USB and/or FireWire connectivity to plug your computer into.  A good number of people would run out of digital inputs on a DAC-enabled BP-26 almost immediately.  And while I'm interested in both the Bryston pre-amps and an excellent DAC, but I feel reluctant to get those in the same box just for flexibility's sake.  

In this sense, this unit would be to digital audio as the Video switching unit is to the SP 1.7  (which I thought was a really wicked idea btw)

So give it a whack of digital inputs, Toslink/Coax SPDIF, USB and/or FireWire (full-size ports please, not the mini ones) maybe some more obscure ones depending on demand (AES/BNC whatever) and then have analog outputs (XLR balanced/RCA unbalanced) and it would be nice to also have digital outputs as well, so that the unit could serve as a translator from one format to another in the case where someone wanted just to use it as a switch to a further downstream DAC.

Bryston name, Bryston quality/build, Bryston warranty, Bryston commitment to customer service and who knows maybe future firmware/hardware upgrades to potentially salve some of the burn from all these damn format changes.

More and more people are moving to a "media-server" type approach to music, since now that we've been collecting CD's so long it would take a damn room to hold them all.  Personally (and like others) I've been encoding ALL my CD's in a lossless format on my computer.  And computer here doesn't have to mean "crappy Dell with a garbage sound card", many of us - perhaps yourself too - have put together really custom PC systems with top notch components and dead-silent power-supplies/heat-sink cooling etc.

Anyway, that's just my 2c.

If you guys are dead-set on making a CD player, I'd suggest transport-only, and I would further suggest seeing it if is possible to interface with a computer (ie. USB/FireWire).  There aren't really any high-end computer CD-ROM's (for those of us who do extract our music digitally) that this might be an interesting option.  Perhaps bundle with the amazing Exact Audio Copy program, not sure if the author would be willing to entertain such a partnership:

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de

[nicolasb]

Yeah, I think a stand-alone version of the DAC module in a BP26DA would be a neat idea - stereo DAC with upsampling, but no pre-amp capabilities, and no analogue inputs.

[KCLam]

I believe the reason that Bryston is still around today after over 25 years is because it focuses on certain core values or philosphy.
These values have been Bryston's competitive advantage.

Brystons's core philosphy posted on their website are as follows:
1) The perfect blend of highly advanced technology & devotion to old-world craft
2) It starts with exceptional design
3) Excellence in manufacturing
4) Testing, and more testing
5) Protecting your investment
6) Catering to the discerning buyer


Should Bryston launch a CD player that meets the criteria above?
A player has lots of moving parts and can Bryston throw in a 20 year warranty?
The "uncertainty" of the medium and the speed of change, i.e. SACD, CD, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD?
The marketing and R&D $ to enter the demanding player market vs the returns?
Does the Company's core values overides the desire to enter into a new segment?

Speaker and amp technology do not experience such radical change over time. Equipment that reads software does.

Knowing Bryston, they will not relabel another product and sell it as Bryston. In fact the reverse is true.

Having said that, Mr Tanner, if you get it right, I will buy it.

Best regards.

[BeeBop]

I don't think many audiophiles would expect a 20 year warranty for a CD player or transport.

Ayre gives 5 and SIM Audio 10 (although only 3 years for the Philips transport in its Eclipse player).

I do wonder what strategy is behind the new power supply that
comes with the BP26 though

[James Tanner]

Hi All,

Yes the warranty on any product with moving parts would have to be about 3 years -- at least on the transport.
After much investigation it becomes obvious that getting into the DVD Multi-format player arena for Bryston is not going to happen anytime soon. There are just to many issues and changes in that area - Blue Laser - HD etc. - not to mention the rediculous licensing fees.
I do think there may be room for a high quality reasonably priced Stereo complete CD player and separate Drive CD player though based on the feedback I am getting.
The SACD and DVDA surround market does not seem to be materializing so hi-res stereo may be the answer.
One explaination for the acceptance of a good old standard Reb Book Stereo CD player or Drive may be that most folks are just tired of all the changes and obsolesence out there and are going back to what is plentiful software wise and feels comfortable.
Thoughts?

james

[BeeBop]

Hi All,
One explaination for the acceptance of a good old standard Reb Book Stereo CD player or Drive may be that most folks are just tired of all the changes and obsolesence out there and are going back to what is plentiful software wise and feels comfortable.

You said it! High end redbook players are producing wonderful music these days. Personally I have thousands of redbook CDs. Which is cheaper? A high quality redbook player or replacing them all with the format of the month?

In terms of warranty, 3 years is terrific; 5 years would be perfect (IMHO). Also important is warranty transferability. It's a lot easier to lay out bucks for a piece of equipment knowing that you can sell it later if you have to or want to. Transferrable warranties make that re-sale a lot easier. Of course you are taking on added business risk but typically I would think your market segment tends to take pretty good care of its equipment.

[thomaspf]

I wager that most players sold in 5 years will be targeted for video. They still will play music but the sales of CDs will be down quite a bit from where it is today and it is down quite a bit already.

However, it would be nice if I could digitally connect my hard drive equipped cell phone holding my lossless compressed music to my Bryston gear. Unlike the switch from Vinyl to CD this is not even a big leap. You just buy your music on the Internet store it on your music server and stream it around your house or sync and play it with your portable devices. A good dejitter solution will be crucial in that world ...

Your CD collection fits on 2 or 3 hard drives as well. I grant you that the time it takes to rip them is painful but once you have them online you never go back.

Just a thought before we all get overwhelmed by nostalgia. I am typing this while listening to a pair of active BC1s connected to a computer.

Cheers

  Thomas

[BeeBop]

You are right about the direction things are going - the DAC route that Bryston took was a smart move. Right now I'd buy a CD transport or player before I got a music server; in another 5 years I might feel differently. The idea of having my entertainment system connected to the internet gives me the creeps. I worry about the direction that copyright protection is going to take things.

[BachToRock]

James... if you do embark on releasing such a product, please include a set of VARIABLE outputs with remote control of the volume

[antt]

Yes the warranty on any product with moving parts would have to be about 3 years -- at least on the transport.

If Bryston does manufacture a transport, the warranty would have to be more than 3 years.  The reason for this is the Bryston name stands for (among other things) build quality.  The 20 year warranty is considered proof of this.
Now, while I'm not saying you should provide a warranty of 20 years for something with moving parts, I am saying that it should have a warranty noticably longer than the competition.  People would expect this from Bryston products, and if you should depart from this philosophy (warranty wise) on a product meant to open new markets for Bryston, I think it will be a much harder sell for Bryston than it would be for other manufacturers (where that expectation doesn't exist.)
If you cannot manufacture a transport with a longer warranty, I do not think it would be a good idea for Bryston to attempt it.

Now, if you did make a CD transport, would I buy it?  Answer: No, because I want to get a new DVD transport, and I don't listen to CD's that often.

[nicolasb]

I do think there may be room for a high quality reasonably priced Stereo complete CD player and separate Drive CD player though based on the feedback I am getting.

My vote would still be for a stand-alone DAC rather than a full CD player. A well-designed DAC (of the sort that buffers the input signal and reclocks it) should be almost immune to the quality of the transport.

Maybe you could do a two-box solution, transport and DAC, so people have the option of buying only one box if they want a DAC upgrade (or, indeed, a transport upgrade)?

Or (if you wanted to get really obscure ) how about a stand-alone jitter removal and signal upsampling device? Something that sits in between the transport and DAC/processor. That'd be really neat.

[thomaspf]

This is the rub. Doing dejittering right for multi-channel is a bit more tricky because of lip-sync issues.

However, an easy way out is a master clock-output on the DAC which you can then feed into the sound card. This is basically avoiding the dejitter buffer altogether by clocking the sender.

An even cheaper way exists for USB audio with the asynchronous adaptive mode.

1394 IEC 61883-6 is unfortunatley an isochronous protocol that requires dejittering at the destination. I have not studies the HDMI audio specs in detail.

In any case there are many ways to attack this problem but a high quality DAC will definitely have a much longer life expectancy than a transport as long as you make it powerful enough to support the HD-audio formats.

Cheers

    Thomas

[brystonbrad]

If Bryston does manufacture a transport, the warranty would have to be more than 3 years.  The reason for this is the Bryston name stands for (among other things) build quality.  The 20 year warranty is considered proof of this.
Now, while I'm not saying you should provide a warranty of 20 years for something with moving parts, I am saying that it should have a warranty noticably longer than the competition.  People would expect this from Bryston products, and if you should depart from this philosophy (warranty wise) on a product meant to open new markets for Bryston, I think it will be a much harder sell for Bryston than it would be for other manufacturers (where that expectation doesn't exist.)
If you cannot manufacture a transport with a longer warranty, I do not think it would be a good idea for Bryston to attempt it.
 ...

I agree on the warranty.  Have the 20 year warranty on the electronics and 10 years (or whatever) on the transport..

I also agree on having a DVD transport capabilities as well with digital outs for sdi please, etc, etc...  I'd buy one with the Bryston name on it as I am in the market for one.  I own a SP1.7, 4B and a 5B currently...

[woofer15]

Don't make fun of Argyle, WI.  I spent the first 18 years of my life there.  Go Orioles-Argyle Orioles that is. P.S. I have lived all over the U.S., earned a PH.D. and I still call Argyle home.  I'm not sure why.