More proof that the room is the most important component

audiojerry · « **on:** 10 Mar 2003, 02:08 pm »

As some of you know I have a very nice system and dedicated listening area in the basement. Many visitors have listened to my system; some commenting very positively on how it sounds here on audiocircle and elsewhere. My listening room is a very acoustically dead space, which is good for imaging and soundstaging because it reduces reflections to a non-issue. However, this deadness also adversely limits the vitality and energy that is in the music and requires me to listen in the very nearfield with powerful amplification.

This weekend my wife, Ruth, asked me to bring my stand mounted speakers upstairs and hook them up to our 10 year old system consisting of $250 Onkyo receiver, $180 Onkyo cd 6 disc changer, and no-name Ratshack cabling. Our living room is a much larger space allowing the sound to open up and breathe. This unlikely combination of components surpassed my basement reference system in many ways. There was much more life, and the bass was amazing. This was from a pair of tiny ProAc 1SC monitors.

This is another confirmation that the room is by far the most important component. We had a wonderful time listening to music together. The bad news is that Ruth is now trying to make a claim on my ProAcs, so I may need to hunt down another pair of speakers.

Does anyone have any experience with the Round Sound Gallo Micros?

Ravi · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 05:54 am »

Jerry I completely agree with you.

Since having a similar experience as you about 4 months ago, I also beleive that the room is by far the most important ingredient. There is nothing better than a large acoustical space, music just seams to gain an effortless, magical quality in a large room. Music just seems to eminate out of thin air.

When I had the audition 1801s, I fired them up in my regular listening room, and I thought, yeah they sound very good, but nothing magical. When I put them in a huge (I mean HUGE!!!) upstairs room, they transformed into the best speakers I've ever heard. The music flowed so naturally, and the sence of space and life in the music was the best I've experienced. At that point, I realized, the biggest upgrade one can ever make is the room, not any component.

jcoat007 · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 03:16 pm »

Audiojerry:

What are the dimensions of your room?

Steve

Brian Cheney · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 04:13 pm »

I feel if audiojerry did full room treatment in his basement his sound would improve dramatically. I like the LEDE environment: side and back walls plus ceiling to a depth of 1/3 the room length covered with 3" or better Sonex, plus corner bass traps. Works for rooms big and small, basements or attics.

nathanm · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 04:43 pm »

Wow, how about that?

Not that I think your basement sounds bad Jerry, but technically speaking there's quite a bit of "stuff" that would cause reflections down there. On the right side you've got some subs sitting there, and your huge TV of course, all within that first reflection area. On the other side there's the equipment rack and a wall. Behind the speakers there's glass cabinet doors and such. I think the close proximity of the seating does cut down on those issues, though. And it does sound pretty dead regardless. Perhaps the stuffed pheasants and antlers are providing beneficial back wall diffusion?

If it were me I'd put your 2-channel speakers along the wall where the TV-the-size-of-Vermont is now.

Pretty much any room you walk into gives you a vibe of how it's gonna sound. Right now my foam-less "big" living room is reflective as all get out, I don't even like hearing people talk in this room much less playing music in it.

audiojerry · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 05:18 pm »

Brian, I appreciate your advice, but are the treatments you describe sound absorption or sound reflective? Right now my room is extremely absorptive. As Nathan alluded to, it just sounds dead and very closed in. There is 10" of fiberglass insulation in the ceiling joists. The ceiling itself is acoustic ceiling tiles. The walls have 3.5" of fiberglass insulation behind 1/2" of drywall behind 1" of rough sawn cedar boards, which are pourous and absorptive. The concrete floor has 5/8" of heavy carpet padding underneath thick pile wall to wall carpeting. There are several pieces of over stuffed chairs and sofa. There are lots of wall hangings. Yes there is a big screen, but it is not glass; it is a textured type of plexiglass.

When I had the RM2's in this space, I could never get enough bass output, even though I'm sure those speakers are capable of great bass. Right now I have tiny little ProAc 1SC's with 5 1/4" midbass drivers. When I moved them upstairs the bass was unbelievable, and the overall energy level of the speakers increased accordingly.

Jcoat, the upstairs room is 17 x 27 and opens up to a large kitchen area at one end, and to a wood floored foyer on the other that is two stories tall, which itself opens into a dining room on the other side, so there lots of unrestricted air space.

Nathan, I did try configuring the speakers 90 and 180 degrees in the basement, but they did not sound as good.

Carlman · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 05:28 pm »

I noticed the room effect as well when I was auditioning speakers. The various sound rooms had as much of a signature as the speakers themselves. I listened at a place called 'Soundex' or something like that near Philadelphia.. where the rooms were huge and dead.

I listened at a local shop where the room was smaller, slightly livelier and I felt it was a better match to how my 'sound room' at home would be configured. Unfortunately, living arrangements changed and my listening room became far from ideal for my speakers... now I just can't wait to buy a house and get a real sound room. It was odd telling my wife that the house was primarily going to be a hifi tweak...

-Carl

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Mar 2003, 07:44 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

When I had the RM2's in this space, I could never get enough bass output, even though I'm sure those speakers are capable of great bass.

audiojerry, I had the same issue with the RM40 in my room. With room treatment, I'm getting some pretty decent mid and upper bass output. The bass is also cleaner and more articulate.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #8 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 01:46 pm »

I remember when my room that I use in the attic got insulation in the walls and ceiling. It made next to no difference in the room itself. This still leaves the reflective walls. I would like to further note that LEDE is not just for VMPS speakers. This is a time honored and tested set up used by many studios who have a variety of loudspeakers. Anything from B&W to Dunlavy, etc. etc. I even have one customer of mine who uses them with his ESL's.
Jerry: the choice is yours and yours alone. I will tell you this: If you do not get some half way decent acoustics in your listening room, then anything you do after that will NOT change the basic problem of loudspeaker and room. You can alter frequency response to some extent, You can mask with noise and distortion, but the real problem of loudspeaker and room will always be ever present. Many people who use equalizers treat the room as much as they can and ask the equalizer to do the rest.
Jerry: None of us can deny your personal experience. We are offering options here to make your audio experience more meaningful. It's your choice.

bundee1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 02:54 pm »

I moved my system from the short side of the room to the wide side. I used to sit about six feet from my speakers and I was disappointed by the sound. I moved the system to the long wall close to the corner. Speakers are about 20" from back wall and right speaker is 24" from sidewall. I now sit 3 feet away with speakers toed in and tweeters meeting about 1 foot in front of me. WOW what a difference!
Vocals are dead ahead and full not thin, with drums sharper and bass fuller. Instruments come from behind and around the speakers. Some sounds come from far left and right of the speakers. Now im wrapped in sound. Its like the sound is in a 120 degree arc in front of me. Im happier with the sound now. I was listening to Edie Brickell and the New Bohemians "Shooting Rubber Bands at the Stars" and I was surprised at the quality of the recording. Is this the way a properly setup system is supposed to sound?

witchdoctor · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Mar 2003, 01:57 am »

I just treated my small NYC apt. with plaster walls with room treatment from 8th Nerve. It literally made my room "sing". Classical music sounds more like a real hall vs. a living room. I posted on the 8th nerve site and will have a full review in a week or so.

jcoat007 · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Mar 2003, 03:10 am »

How does their stuff look?

I have huge WAF issues.

witchdoctor · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Mar 2003, 03:35 am »

It looks kind of like a small pillow. They come in two colors , black or ivory.
I would start with the corners, very discreet and BIG impact on sound. After the wife gets used to them, one day add the seams. The key is to not do everything at once as it may be too much for your wife. I can't imagine the tiny corners being a big deal.

BrunoB · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 May 2003, 10:46 pm »

My room is damped with convoluted mattress foam bought at Wal Mart. I have three layers on the wall behind the speakers, two layers behind the seating position, plus a single layer on the side walls and the ceiling. When possible, I keep air between the layers. I have carpet on the floor. That makes a HUGE improvement. I don't have the impression that my room is dead. On the contrary, the sound is more dynamic , less harsh, more detailed and gives me pin point imaging. It's more like a headphone type of sound but with the right spatial stereo.

The question I have in my mind is what is the difference between acoustic (e.g. Sonex) and inexpensive foam? Both use the same polymer (polyurethane). Do they really sound different?

I know that some other acoustic foam are class 1 fire rated, which I would prefer for safety reason.

Bruno

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 May 2003, 12:34 am »

Bruno: Check out www.foambymail.com and www.partsexpress.com

Marbles · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 May 2003, 01:08 am »

Having used acoustic foam and 8th nerve stuff, I can say that I have now found other uses for the acoustic foam, like quieting a computer and refrdgerator and the 8 Nerve stuff is now my acoustic treatment of choice for my ref system.

nathanm · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 May 2003, 02:53 am »

Hi Bruno: I'm not trying to say you're doing anything wrong, but this is Auralex's (admittedly biased

) answer for the differences between the mattress pad foam and acoustic foam. Having used both myself I would have to agree with their assesment.

Foam FAQ #12

I hate to bring up an ugly story, but that fire in the Rhode Island club where Great White played was most likely using the wrong type of foam.

Quote from: Some article

Fire safety officials said these tiles catch fire easily. ''Untreated polyurethane is a highly flammable substance,'' said Donald P. Bliss, president of the National Fire Marshals Association and fire marshal for the state of New Hampshire. ''It basically burns like gasoline. When it burns, it melts and spreads the fire and will ignite anything it touches.''

Eek!

BrunoB · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 May 2003, 10:02 am »

Quote from: nathanm

Hi Bruno: I'm not trying to say you're doing anything wrong, but this is Auralex's (admittedly biased ) answer for the differences between the mattress pad foam and acoustic foam. Having used both myself I would have to agree with their assesment.

Foam FAQ #12

I hate to bring up an ugly story, but that fire in the Rhode Island club where Great White played was most likely using the wrong type of foam.

Eek!

I am going to test the fire properties of a small sample of my foam (outside of course). Anyway, I don't feel comfortable having so much non-flame retardant foams in a room. So thanks for the links provided: they will be useful when I will start shopping for new foams.

Bruno

nature boy · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 May 2003, 12:39 pm »

Personally, I think room dimensions, layout of equipment and treatments can really make or break one's and listening experience. A number of my audiophile friends have very expensive high end systems that simply don't sound good because of equipment placement issues or room interactions. That's one of the reasons when we refinished our basement last year, I actively lobbied for a dedicated listening room for my two channel system. The dimensions aren't perfect by any means, but applying room treatments don't have to meet any WAF.

Based on the positive results others have had with 8th Nerve Response Controller products, I spent some time corresponding with Bill Laurent. Bill and the folks at 8th Nerve are very informative, responsive, and know their stuff. After sending Bill a scaled sketch of my basement listening room, he recommended product selection and placement based on my room dimensions and the location of equipment, furniture, etc.

Since these were an early birthday present from my wife, I can't open and experiment with the new tweaks for another couple of weeks. I will be sure to post my observations on Audio Circle.

NB

JohnR · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 May 2003, 04:00 pm »

Quote from: Marbles

Having used acoustic foam and 8th nerve stuff, I can say that I have now found other uses for the acoustic foam, like quieting a computer and refrdgerator and the 8 Nerve stuff is now my acoustic treatment of choice for my ref system.

The 8th N stuff seems pretty small... from the comments I read it seems you need much less coverage with it. Is that your ecxperience?

J