Interesting exchange

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 2619 times.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #20 on: 11 Jul 2018, 07:54 pm »
The key take away is that Mark actually measured an increase in SPL when the swap was made. See link below.
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223
 
 The easiest explanation is that the volume control knob was moved to increase the system SPLs resulting in an easy to hear false impression of a dramatic improvement.  Occam's Razor anyone.
Scotty

...and it is very well known that a small increase in level is always perceived as sounding 'better'.

CanadianMaestro

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1326
  • Skepticism is the engine of progress
    • Hearing Everything That Nothing Can Measure
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #21 on: 11 Jul 2018, 08:17 pm »

AJinFLA

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1030
  • Soundfield Audio Loudspeakers
    • Soundfield Audio
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #22 on: 11 Jul 2018, 08:40 pm »
I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible
IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.

I think the difference is in the distortion
:lol:

https://www.google.com/search?q=theory+vs+fact&oq=thepry+vs+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.6566j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

p.s. getting caught red handed for fraudulent behavior creates some very funny reactions from believers lol

Goosepond

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 975
  • Hedy!
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #23 on: 11 Jul 2018, 08:41 pm »
Yep. But anyone that good-looking definitely shouldn't be inventing anything! :green:

I'm talking about Hedy!!!

Gene

AJinFLA

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1030
  • Soundfield Audio Loudspeakers
    • Soundfield Audio
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #24 on: 11 Jul 2018, 08:47 pm »
...and it is very well known that a small increase in level is always perceived as sounding 'better'.
Yes, this parlor trick works with no level increase, so a whopping 2db is very poor magicianship from this vendor. Just plain sloppy.

Calypte

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #25 on: 11 Jul 2018, 10:09 pm »
My long previous post appears to have been censored.  A "theory" in science is not some sort of advanced type of speculation that seems pretty good but is short of being a fact.  This is a common misconception of the general public, where "theory" is often interpreted to mean "educated guess."  A scientific "theory" is a framework of concepts, supporting data, and successful predictions.  All of the things the Bryston engineers measure when they design circuits -- voltage, amperage, resistance, inductance, capacitance, db levels, etc., etc. -- are part of the "theory" of electronics.  But most of you don't doubt for a second that these are valid concepts.  There is a zero chance that they will be disproved in this universe.  When Mr. Waldrep says "theory," he's not suggesting for a second that he's talking about anything short of a fact. 

Goosepond

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 975
  • Hedy!
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #26 on: 12 Jul 2018, 01:37 am »
And everyone's reality is what they perceive.

Gene

*Scotty*

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #27 on: 12 Jul 2018, 02:13 am »
Certainly, I agree
Quote
And everyone's reality is what they perceive.

 However, most peoples perceived reality will not render null the subconscious  consensus reality of those around them.
 Which why Ohms law holds true and stepping in front of a moving Greyhound bus may still  kill you. :wink:
Scotty

R. Daneel

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 728
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #28 on: 19 Jul 2018, 01:30 pm »
I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.

IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.

Excuse me? The "EE types"? What the heck is that? If you knew 1 % the stuff electrical engineers are bound to learn and apply in everyday practice, you would have more respect for them and the responsibility engineering in general means.

What are we talking about here? Power cords that remarkably nullify everything that affects the flow before it reaches the AC outlet? Well, good for them. If such super-conductors existed at real-world prices, they would find application in every imaginable industry, the last of which would be the fashion industry this audiophile business has turned into.

As for the "EE types", your post is unbelievably wrong on so many frotnts that I am really having trouble responding to it on the same level. Let me put it this way; If I was a structural engineer who designed cable-suspended bridges, then it is fair to say I know something about the bridge I design, how it behaves in certain environmental conditions etc., even if I will never actually walk across that particular bridge. On the other hand, someone like you would persist on knowing more about that bridge just because you did walk across it and at the same time, you could be a gardener. No offense intended towards you gardeners out there.

Well-shielded conductors of adequate cross-section surface area will be indistinguishable from one another.

martydmnt

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 46
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #29 on: 19 Jul 2018, 05:16 pm »
Kudos to Dr. Weldrep for taking the simple step that the demonstrator should have done on their own. I'm not an EE (only a chemical engineer, I'm afraid), but my basic understanding of how power supplies work has left me puzzled and skeptical of these extremely expensive power cords that magically make a difference in the audio performance of any gear. I gave up reading much of the audio press because it was just too astounding to read articles recommending things like high-end ethernet cables or quantum signal enhancers for improving sound.

Trust your ears is ok advice, just keep in mind the senses are easy to fool.


 

brucek

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 428
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #30 on: 19 Jul 2018, 08:37 pm »
Excuse me? The "EE types"? What the heck is that? If you knew 1 % the stuff electrical engineers are bound to learn and apply in everyday practice, you would have more respect for them and the responsibility engineering in general means.

What are we talking about here? Power cords that remarkably nullify everything that affects the flow before it reaches the AC outlet? Well, good for them. If such super-conductors existed at real-world prices, they would find application in every imaginable industry, the last of which would be the fashion industry this audiophile business has turned into.

As for the "EE types", your post is unbelievably wrong on so many fronts that I am really having trouble responding to it on the same level. Let me put it this way; If I was a structural engineer who designed cable-suspended bridges, then it is fair to say I know something about the bridge I design, how it behaves in certain environmental conditions etc., even if I will never actually walk across that particular bridge. On the other hand, someone like you would persist on knowing more about that bridge just because you did walk across it and at the same time, you could be a gardener. No offense intended towards you gardeners out there.

Well-shielded conductors of adequate cross-section surface area will be indistinguishable from one another.

R. Daneel, you have to know by now that arguing with believers is no different than arguing with any religious believer. There is no possible route to your conversion of that person to the facts. Audio hobbyists aren't interested in your science.

Yes, you and I may know that there is no advantage in using a heavier gauge wire than presently in use between your electrical service panel and your wall outlet. The standard gauges provide all that is required (i.e. 12 gauge = 20 amps).  We also may know that shielding a power cord is pointless since the circuits that deliver AC power to your components are indeed the lowest impedance circuits in your entire audio system. As a result of this very low impedance, there is absolutely no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within a power cable or to prevent RFI from entering a power cable. And if you foolishly felt shielding was needed, then of course you would need to shield all AC cables back to the electrical generation plant for such a scheme to have any therapeutic effect. We also know that all copper wire (even that used to wire your house) is free from oxygen down to the “sixth decimal place” (99.999999 pure copper), so any discussion in that regard is marketing at its worse.

You only have to look as far as the stock power cable offered by Bryston in their box. If they felt that after all that engineering they put into their amplifiers would be held back by the stock cable, would they not spend a dollar or two upgrading that cable to release the hounds? No, they understand that the stock cable realizes the optimum capabilities of that amplifier.

R. Daneel, you have to let audio enthusiasts enjoy their hobby, and yeah it's tough when they claim volume increases with power cords, but hey, it's just fun. Let it go.  :)

brucek

CanadianMaestro

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1326
  • Skepticism is the engine of progress
    • Hearing Everything That Nothing Can Measure
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #31 on: 19 Jul 2018, 09:16 pm »



Pundamilia

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 157
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #32 on: 20 Jul 2018, 01:04 am »
 :thumb:  +1  :thumb:

R. Daneel

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 728
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #33 on: 20 Jul 2018, 11:06 am »
R. Daneel, you have to know by now that arguing with believers is no different than arguing with any religious believer. There is no possible route to your conversion of that person to the facts. Audio hobbyists aren't interested in your science.

Yes, you and I may know that there is no advantage in using a heavier gauge wire than presently in use between your electrical service panel and your wall outlet. The standard gauges provide all that is required (i.e. 12 gauge = 20 amps).  We also may know that shielding a power cord is pointless since the circuits that deliver AC power to your components are indeed the lowest impedance circuits in your entire audio system. As a result of this very low impedance, there is absolutely no need for shielding of any type to either contain RFI within a power cable or to prevent RFI from entering a power cable. And if you foolishly felt shielding was needed, then of course you would need to shield all AC cables back to the electrical generation plant for such a scheme to have any therapeutic effect. We also know that all copper wire (even that used to wire your house) is free from oxygen down to the “sixth decimal place” (99.999999 pure copper), so any discussion in that regard is marketing at its worse.

You only have to look as far as the stock power cable offered by Bryston in their box. If they felt that after all that engineering they put into their amplifiers would be held back by the stock cable, would they not spend a dollar or two upgrading that cable to release the hounds? No, they understand that the stock cable realizes the optimum capabilities of that amplifier.

R. Daneel, you have to let audio enthusiasts enjoy their hobby, and yeah it's tough when they claim volume increases with power cords, but hey, it's just fun. Let it go.  :)

brucek

I apologize for my temper.

One of my friends who's in sales has a saying; if someone is waving money in the air like a kid who's found his daddy's gun, take his money before he hurts himself with it. I wish I was a salesman like him. he doesn't need to rely on Science, only the ignorance of his fellow-man. 

Cheers,
Antun

Elizabeth

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1814
  • Love is all there is....
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #34 on: 20 Jul 2018, 12:01 pm »
Who cares? You guys have your faith in what you were programmed to believe. And the folks who can hear differences in wire FROM ACTUALLY TRYING THEM (which is what scientist do)
SO all the flapping of gums? who cares.. All you are doing is convincing YOURSELVES that "you have to be right, (Because you yell the loudest?)
Clearly on this site, the naysayers are in control. They gang up and think that because they all cheer in unison it make them right. Again, you whining does nothing to convince anyone who actually can hear.
Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords. Same brand as old, just a upgraded version. And have been 'tuning' the system with them to find just the right placement for them.Some new clearly are better SOUNDING in some locations. Some locations the old cord is better SOUNDING. So I listen and play music, and then swap a cord to change the sound slightly, and see which I like best. This all is, naturally ridiculous to you guys.

So while I laugh at the antics and claims made by 'nonbelievers'. (and you do exactly the same) I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! So basically all we are doing is waving flags and shouting slogans at each other across a great divide. (the one odd part of it is every once in awhile one of YOUR side actually finds out they can hear differences, and they join my side LOL) I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.
I am perfectly happy you do what you think is right to have good music.
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.

CanadianMaestro

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1326
  • Skepticism is the engine of progress
    • Hearing Everything That Nothing Can Measure
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #35 on: 20 Jul 2018, 12:12 pm »

 I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.

So what is there to "learn"?
That cables act as tone controls? That's old stuff.
That it's easy to get suckered by marketing? Not exactly new, either.

cheers

AJinFLA

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1030
  • Soundfield Audio Loudspeakers
    • Soundfield Audio
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #36 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:14 pm »

adol290

Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #37 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:14 pm »
Who cares? You guys have your faith in what you were programmed to believe. And the folks who can hear differences in wire FROM ACTUALLY TRYING THEM (which is what scientist do)
SO all the flapping of gums? who cares.. All you are doing is convincing YOURSELVES that "you have to be right, (Because you yell the loudest?)
Clearly on this site, the naysayers are in control. They gang up and think that because they all cheer in unison it make them right. Again, you whining does nothing to convince anyone who actually can hear.
Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords. Same brand as old, just a upgraded version. And have been 'tuning' the system with them to find just the right placement for them.Some new clearly are better SOUNDING in some locations. Some locations the old cord is better SOUNDING. So I listen and play music, and then swap a cord to change the sound slightly, and see which I like best. This all is, naturally ridiculous to you guys.

So while I laugh at the antics and claims made by 'nonbelievers'. (and you do exactly the same) I already know you will never learn anything from these 'discussions' and you also know you will never convince anyone on my side either! So basically all we are doing is waving flags and shouting slogans at each other across a great divide. (the one odd part of it is every once in awhile one of YOUR side actually finds out they can hear differences, and they join my side LOL) I enjoy my system. Please enjoy yours too. in your own way.
I am perfectly happy you do what you think is right to have good music.
This is a hobby, and it is to enjoy ourselves. So go enjoy YOUR own system in ways you like, and allow ME to enjoy my system and do with it what I like to do.


+1   :thumb:

AJinFLA

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1030
  • Soundfield Audio Loudspeakers
    • Soundfield Audio
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #38 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:20 pm »
Of late I bought a pile (eight to be exact) new 'better' powercords.
Terrific. So after all the hand waving, red herrings, projections, etc, etc. all you have to do is demonstrate a measured (vs imagined) 2-2.5db difference between any 2 of them, simply by exchanging them, rather that tweaking the volume like a shyster would. Because that is exactly what Waldrep and another person did, measure a 2-2.5db difference in intensity and what this thread is about.
We await your evidence, thanks. That would confirm that peddlers do indeed know more than the EEs do, believe me.

cheers,

AJ

Goosepond

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 975
  • Hedy!
Re: Interesting exchange
« Reply #39 on: 20 Jul 2018, 02:21 pm »
This is a great hobby, isn't it.

But come on man, we can't all be right, can we???

Or can we!  :green:

Gene