[James Tanner]

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6236

[Elizabeth]

I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.

IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.

[zoom25]

Louder...Loudness. We have to be careful when we are discussing these things. Loudness is something that you 'perceive' and is subjective and related to your central auditory nervous system.

SPL and decibel reading is objective. It's based on the pressure (amplitude).

When we say something appears louder, it's good to know whether something appears louder due to an actual increase in amplitude or if it's an effect of something else like auditory masking.

Turning the volume on the amplifier increases the decibel and we perceive it as louder. On the other hand, for example with digital sources (noise, hash, jitter)...I often find that different inputs or sources can come off as 'louder' vs. 'softer' or "in my face" vs. "laid back." If you measure the SPL it will be identical for all purposes. The difference will lie elsewhere such as auditory masking.

Take Vovox unshielded mic cable as an example. I know a lot of Vovox users find them as louder than the rest (Mogami, Belden). When you measure them, they have identical levels of the signal. However, when you start looking at noise rejection, you can find differences there.

If somebody measures that 2 functional power cords have a difference of 2-3 db, I'd be very skeptical. I do wonder about the effects of shielding and ground loops...

Pressure/amplitude and frequency = the objective thing that we perceive.

Loudness = function of our auditory system, something that we perceive and therefore subjective

[Elizabeth]

I think the difference is in the distortion, or with the fancy powercords. the lack of distortion.
I agree there can be no magical wand waving. It has to be right there.
So if the music is just being repeated, and the equipment is untouched, no volume change.. etc.
Only the powercord is changed.
Well consider the sound as 100% of whatever it is. Not just the music, but the distortion artifacts. So ALL the sound created by the system is say 100%
As a made up system, lets say it has a source, a preamp, and an amp. A cord for each. (plus speakers which usually don't get a powercord)
And say with the stock cord the distortion in the AC from the wall is 4%
 Typical!
SO we can also posit the power supply of each component reduces the distortion to 25% of what it was/SO now with stock powercords the source passes 1% into the music the preamp 1% and the amp 1%. So with this made up notion, the 100% of noise generated by the system includes 3% of junk. and 97% music.
With the aftermarket powercords, they alone reduce the distortion from the wall to say 1%.(these are HIGH END $$$ cords, and a guarantee that is what they do)
So now the source cuts that to 25% of whatever it was (typical way it works) and so each of our components now produces 0.25% added garbage to the music. or a total of 0.75%
And thus if the noise total has to be 100% (and it DOES) then 2.25% MORE music is hearable from the system with the fancy powercords. And so it Does sound louder, and the music is louder. (while the distortion and garbage is less)
Magic/logic?
Thank you.
Now the EE guys may come and argue the percentages, they cannot ague the logic.

[Russell Dawkins]

I think the difference is in the distortion, or with the fancy powercords. the lack of distortion.....

....Now the EE guys may come and argue the percentages, they cannot ague the logic.

Logic?

Distortion would be added to the signal, making the result louder, wouldn't it?
So, a superior power cable—one that lacks distortion by your definition—would be quieter, not louder, wouldn't it?

[zoom25]

Hi Elizabeth,

Putting the number and percentages aside, I am confused by the logic and assumptions you are making. I feel lost.

I use a Torus for example, but for this discussion let's exclude the presence of any power conditioners, isolation transformers, or regenerators. We are connecting various power cables to the wall directly (behind which is running generic 14 or 12AWG depending on the circuit). People run many meters up to that point in the wall. Then people connect 3-6 feet of wire to that added wire in the wall. That wire is part of the series. Regardless of the cable used in that final run, the wire which is passive cannot reduce the noise present on the line. I'm confused by your use of 'distortion.' What's the distortion you are talking about specifically? I will give you that the shielded cables can help with how much they radiate and if that can have an impact on local noise near the rack.

I'm confused about what 'distortion' these cables are handling differently? Can you clarify? Thanks.

[CanadianMaestro]

The predominant change that many report (subjectively) with upgraded power cords/conditioners, is a lower noise floor. This means that more details emerge from a quieter background, on well-recorded discs. One should then be able to enjoy their music at lower volume settings than before. So, I don't know how these upgrades would make the volume of playback louder. In my system, I effectively listen at lower vol settings, while gaining more details and thus more musicality.

Typically, power supplies and other internals of high-perf amps and sources contribute very little measured distortion ("THD", etc) to the analog output signal, usually less than 0.05% as quoted by mfrs like Bryston. And these are measured with no-frill stock power cords.

Just sayin'. 

[Elizabeth]

Mostly I was trying to say that a apparent louder music could be due to an actual thing. Anyway, I know that most EE guys will not accept that a pc can do anything but pass the power.
The main thing I wonder is did a drag this thread off on a tangent? I wonder where James thought it would go?
Aside from the mystery of apparently louder, the interaction, to me, was the usual two guys bickering. Maybe there was some other interesting things in it, but I didn't see it.

[CanadianMaestro]

Whenever I mention "oxygen-free" copper wiring to my EE colleagues, they say they've never heard of it, and roll their eyes like this   

I don't blame them.

 

[James Tanner]

Mostly I was trying to say that a apparent louder music could be due to an actual thing. Anyway, I know that most EE guys will not accept that a pc can do anything but pass the power.
The main thing I wonder is did a drag this thread off on a tangent? I wonder where James thought it would go?
Aside from the mystery of apparently louder, the interaction, to me, was the usual two guys bickering. Maybe there was some other interesting things in it, but I didn't see it.

Hi Elizabeth

I have always felt that there was too much smoke and mirrors in audio and I respect Mark for challenging the status quo and being suspicious of the audio dogma we are sometimes seduced by at these demos .  I have been involved in may blind tests and you learn a lot about your presuppositions and beliefs.

An example is I like the fact that Mark admits after doing his blind tests with his own recorded sample files he was surprised that most could not tell the difference between standard red book 44.1 and hi-res files. That's a total about face for him and hi-res is something he truly promoted and believed in ... BUT after the tests had to admit he is questioning his own assumptions - I like that and it shows an open mind and a willingness to rethink his belief system.

james

[Speedskater]

I am surprised the guy says it is 'simply not possible' for the power cords to increase the (apparent) my added word)) volume increase.
So the guy decided by theory it was impossible and the actual experience that he himself actually experienced (and thought wa a trick?) gets zero credit.

More likely the line voltage changed. Over the course of a month or two, my line voltage ranges from 113 to 126 Volts. Another possibility is that one of the line cords was defective. (one day I measured the line cords in my spares box with an expensive Ohm-meter, some were nowhere near the value I expected.

IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.

You need to stop putting words in other people's mouths.

[twitch54]

IMO that is exactly what is wrong with EE types. They will say theory says it is impossible. so, for them, it IS impossible. Period. end of story.

Wrong ...... if it's still in the 'theory stage' then 'possibilities' still exist. You apparently are confused between theory and actual laws of science. Therefore that is what's wrong with 'Audiophile Types' !

[zoom25]

Hmmm, okay perhaps I wasn't clear with my inquiry, so I'll incorporate some of the responses above into this.

1) We aren't talking about power conditioners or regenerators in this example. They are not being used specifically in this case. Just standard 'power cords' without any active elements from the wall to the equipment.

2) If the power cable is somehow not able to give the proper voltage or you think it's cheap, you can easily find a 14 AWG or a 12 AWG power cable. If the wire behind the wall is 14 AWG, then a 12AWG power cable even if not fully made to 12 AWG would still be good for 14 AWG. Also, DACs, preamps, digital players and other sources do not require anything close to 14 AWG. It's only the amps and power conditioner that do. I can't see voltage drop in that final cable being a legitimate concern if you overkill it. Plus, take a look at the wire behind the wall.

3) Noise floor and distortion with different power cords (remember, no power conditioners are being used): Is the claim that different power cords in that final leg can make a difference to the noise that is already on the line. As I've said, I can understand how the shielded cables can stop the radiation to interconnects. However, I don't understand if the argument that is is being made here is that the last 3 feet can change the noise that was already present on the wire until the wall.

What am I missing here? Am I not clear with my questions? Somebody dumb it down for me.

[CanadianMaestro]

Wrong ...... if it's still in the 'theory stage' then 'possibilities' still exist. You apparently are confused between theory and actual laws of science. Therefore that is what's wrong with 'Audiophile Types' !

 

TG for science. In everything, not just audio.
Sadly, denial of the realities of science and Nature seems to be on the rise in some places.

[Goosepond]

I'm all for science. At least there is an attempt to understand the natural world.

But all you have to do is watch the programs on Dark Matter & Energy to realize how little we actually know about what's around us.

The remarkable thing about the human brain is it's ability to create all this technology and still not know how it all really works. Very cool for sure. 

And there are no laws of physics. It's all theory! 

Gene

[twitch54]

And there are no laws of physics. It's all theory! 
Gene

well I'll be darned ........and all along I thought it was 'Ohm's Law' not 'Ohm's Theory' !

[Goosepond]

Nah! Ohm's Law is so simple. It makes it seem more authoritative to call it a Law. I wonder if old Mr. Ohm was still around when they declared him a genius and gave him his own Law. 

What about old Uncle Albert: they're still called Special & General Relativity Theories, right?

Gene

[CanadianMaestro]

What about old Uncle Albert: they're still called Special & General Relativity Theories, right?
Gene

Yes, Bertie keeps being proven right, after all these years. Beyond Relativity, too. Black Holes, etc
Really demonstrates the power of creative reasoning, and a damning rebuttal of religion-motivated superstition and dogma. Very humbling.

[Goosepond]

That man's mind was different, that's for sure.

Gene

[*Scotty*]

The key take away is that Mark actually measured an increase in SPL when the swap was made. See link below.
http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=6223
 While we subjectively experience many things in the course of pursuing our hobby the biggest problem is that you can't, by measurements alone, determine what will sound good. That's why you actually have to listen to the circuit in order to catch the mistake before it gets out the door. I have experienced many things which improve or degrade the sound of a system over the years and in many cases they defy an explanation via measurement or simplistic explanations based in scientism. 
 When a piece of equipment is well designed a minor change in wall voltage will not result in a change of gain in the component. A change in gain was what had to have happened when the measured SPLs increased with the change in power cords.
 The easiest explanation is that the volume control knob was moved to increase the system SPLs resulting in an easy to hear false impression of a dramatic improvement.  Occam's Razor anyone.
Scotty