[OZZIOZZI]

I like the sound of open baffle speakers for all the usual reasons, but I cannot Place them in the room as far as many people suggest for best sound because of family considerations--need I say more? The greatest distance possible from the wall behind the TV would be 1metre or 39" and speakers either side of entertainment unit.
Listening position could be pushed backa bit further from speakers and TV.

Is there some way to treat the room walls, floor or ceilings to increase apparent distance? Diffusers, absorbers, deflector panels?

Are certain OB designs or modifications less affected by this need for speakers to sit so far from the front wall.
I am thinking of some of the european designs I have seen that deflect the rear wave towards the sides by the use of curved panels behind the drivers. BTW the room is a combined TV/ stereo room with wooden floor, gyprock/drywall walls and ceiling. Pretty live, but with no obvious boominess, echos or flutter effects, probably due to the furniture. There is a rug on the floor in front of the chairs and heavily upholstered leather recliner chairs and three seat sofa. The patterned rug in the foreground is a grandkids play area. Offlimits!!!!



Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Ozziozzi

[FullRangeMan]

In my experience with Carver Amazing, planars and OBs want free space around and mainly between the speakers, those expensive big rack just in the center of the speakers will result in a bad soundstage for an OB or planar.

Also the planars/OB should be 90º upright if possible and never use toe in. This videos are a perfect lesson on how set wrong a planar speaker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6VYy_wwlUY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h99E0g4BJBU
Unfortunately this audiophile used toe-in, push the planars near the rear wall and put a monster wardrobe between the speakers ((

[Rocket_Ronny]

Fullrangeman's first paragraph I agree with. The second baffles me. I have always toed in planers, opne baffles, and all speakers. Well, except for the Volent speakers. I don't know what your reasoning is. Maybe if you don't have them far apart and sit a mile away I can see no toe in.

If that audiophile you linked to pulled them out 6-12 feet then he would have something and would blow his mind.

Rocket Ronny

[gregfisk]

I too have found that my OB speakers sound best towed in. Also, 39" is more than the minimum of 3' from the front wall so you are okay with that. All OB designs need the 3' rule to work properly. OB's don't care as much about side walls because there is a dead spot there. Also, near field shouldn't be a problem providing your toe in is adjusted accordingly.

I do agree that having a rack in between your speakers is a bad idea. I had a rack between my OB speakers and it killed the sound stage compared to the amazing soundstage I get with nothing in the middle. Of course I realize some things can't be changed but I did want to point that out if by chance you could change it.

Greg

[FullRangeMan]

My tips will enhance soundstage with the Carver Amazing or other ribbon, with this set-up they will make the disappearing act like Copperfield, even at near field.
Toe-in usually will delivery the usual clinic hi-fi sound not real music.

[Russell Dawkins]

My tips will enhance soundstage with the Carver Amazing or other ribbon, with this set-up they will make the disappearing act like Copperfield, even at near field.
Toe-in usually will delivery the usual clinic hi-fi sound not real music.

Not real music? Is that why you always see monitors toed in in studios? Because engineers love to waste time judging their sound listening to unreal music? Clinic hifi?

If you are not testing speaker positioning and orientation by feeding a mono signal and listening for a tight narrow phantom image you are just guessing.

You might eventually stumble on an effective positioning, but it is statistically highly unlikely that you ever will, unless you listen outdoors or in an anechoic chamber, and even then the average speaker will sound more as intended by the designer when it is facing you or crossed very slightly in front of you..

But, hey... that's what this hobby is all about, right? Wishful thinking, that is, not reason.

[JLM]

If you love good sound you really should have a proper setup or just go with another approach (suggest headphones or monitors/sub). 

OB requires space and distance and sorry but you appear to have neither.  When adding in various shared family functions your commitment to OB in this situation seems to be an exercise in frustration. 

The 3 foot rule is a rule of thumb for any speaker and barely, barely, barely sufficient for OB.  5 feet is a better rule of thumb for OB.  Wide range absorption panels could help.  Recommend contacting GIK (an Audio Circle sponsor), but frankly your OB desire seem to be a lost cause in this case. 

Toe-in is a function primarily of dispersion, which is dictated by driver sizes and the frequencies they cover as well as use of wave guides or horns, not OB.  And the speakers must be too low because I can't see them in your image.  Some have suggested extremely low positioning to help reinforce bass as you appear to be doing, but that squeezes the soundstage against the floor - ridiculous, even if you sit on the floor to do critical listening. 

And that equipment in the soundstage is another big no-no.  I had a very small rack (20" x 20" x 15") against the front wall in a dedicated room using a near-field setup (speakers 67" from front wall) and six GIK 244 panels at first front/side wall reflection points and front corners.  Note that with a 'perfect' room (8ft x 13ft x 21ft) the panels do little but have been highly effective elsewhere.  When I replaced/simplified the gear I tried using a spiked shelf on the floor 4 feet from the front wall and boy did that help!  Now I have a full soundstage. 

[FullRangeMan]

Not real music? Is that why you always see monitors toed in in studios? Because engineers love to waste time judging their sound listening to unreal music? Clinic hifi?

If you are not testing speaker positioning and orientation by feeding a mono signal and listening for a tight narrow phantom image you are just guessing.

You might eventually stumble on an effective positioning, but it is statistically highly unlikely that you ever will, unless you listen outdoors or in an anechoic chamber, and even then the average speaker will sound more as intended by the designer when it is facing you or crossed very slightly in front of you..

But, hey... that's what this hobby is all about, right? Wishful thinking, that is, not reason.

[OZZIOZZI]

I should have started my post with " in a real world situation" Sometimes we have to live with compromises, but thanks for the immediate responses.

I am at the planning stage at the moment and the speakers are not yet installed. Up until recently I had a small pair of two-way ported enclosures sitting either side of TV almost at ear height and a sub hidden behind the  wooden unit. (Which, incidentally is open at floor level for its whole width.) This sounded OK, but you all know how audiofools get restless. OBs consist of H frame bass with panel above. About 14" wide overall. Presently sitting in workshop. Bit like MJK passive XO OBs, but with 12" bass driver. These will be either side and forward of tv and wooden cabinet (which will be moved about 18" to the right). So acoustic centres of H frames would be at least 3 ft from front wall, possibly more.

I guess a lot of confusion is my fault because of crappy picture taken inhaste to illustrate listening space,
The "rack" is actually a flat-screen tv sitting on a wooden lowboy unit with maybe 18" behind including room for sub if necessary. The ear listening position seated is about 7ft from screen, but this can be increased by maybe a foot. The whole picture is foreshortened because of the camera position.

I realise setup is not perfect. I was just thinking about how to incorporate larger OB speakers into area.

Ozzi

[OZZIOZZI]

Some thoughts on responses so far and My approach to this hobby.

 I do use over-ear headphones sometimes, but in a subtropical region I find them a bit uncomfortable in warmer weather and there is always that "orchestra in the middle of your head"feeling. Admit I have not tried electroacoustic circuits to expand stereo image.

As good as possible result is preferable to " give up because you will never achieve perfection" or"give up because your room is not perfect"

Near field low level listening is ok, especially late at night, but nothing beats roomfilling sound at average to highlevel.

Thanks again for useful tips.

Ozzi

[Jonathon Janusz]

Search for Ed's screen name (ebag4) here on AudioCircle.  He has done and posted more than anyone else I can think of off the top of my head regarding putting OB speakers in small spaces.

[AJinFLA]

The greatest distance possible from the wall behind the TV would be 1metre or 39" and speakers either side of entertainment unit.
Listening position could be pushed backa bit further from speakers and TV.

Then you're good to go.
Only issue I see with that room/setup is asymmetry. But dipoles with their side nulls help there too.

cheers,

AJ

[Tyson]

I'd recommend changing the rack to something low and wide, removing the TV and getting a projector that can mount to the ceiling.  That will give you an even bigger/nicer video image, while getting totally out of the way when not in use.  I'd also put some GIK art panels on the walls to give a bit of absorption while still looking stylish, and heavy curtains for the windows.

And put another heavy throw rug on the floor to cover the hardwood closest to the speakers.  These are all things that have a high WAF if done properly and they will give a big improvement to the sound, regardless of what speakers you use.

[OZZIOZZI]

Thanks AJin FLA and Johnathon for your positive contribultions to my post. Of course I could always buy a new house, abandon the family and devote myself fully to my hobbies. 

BTW is that THE Ed Bagley that I have heard mentioned for years on this forum?  Never came across his posts about small rooms. Iwill read all his posts with interest.

Cheers

Ozzi

[FullRangeMan]

There is a topic about small rooms:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107352.msg1183456#msg1183456