What exactly are Tidal, Spotify, et al?

Stu Pitt · « **on:** 6 Apr 2018, 11:32 pm »

I’ve been away from keeping track of what’s what in the audio world for a while now. Looking around, I see Tidal and the like mentioned quite a bit. I’ve researched, gone to their sites, etc., yet I still pretty much feel clueless. It’s like everything’s written with the assumption that I know exactly what they are/do.

So what exactly are these streaming services? Are they basically like Netflix for music? Do I actually download the music to a hard drive or the like, or does it play like a Netflix movie where it’s taking it directly off the net?

Then I seen offline listening option. What? How? Do I download that music and play it wherever? Like on my phone then play it in the car without using data?

Unless there’s distinct fundamental differences between the services, I’m not really asking which is best or the differences; just what they generally do as a whole. Prices and format vary, so I’ll look at that closer before I get into it, but I first need to wrap my head around what streaming music actually is.

I’m in the dark ages here. Believe it or not, I still run an Apple TV gen 1 with built in hard drive and run optical out to my Rega DAC. The remote app is getting way too buggy, so I’m going to move to probably a Bluesound Node in the not too distant future. I guess that’s another thread altogether, but just trying to show you the rock I’ve been living under for the last 10 years or so.

srb · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 12:42 am »

You're understanding it correctly. They are first and foremost streaming services so the normal operation is to play songs as they're streaming from the Internet, like Netflix.

The offline option allows you to download or sync a certain amount of songs that would be stored on your device and not require data usage to play them.

With Spotify, for example, you can sync up to 3,333 songs to your computer, tablet, phone, etc. which are stored on you device's physical storage media and you can do this on up to 3 devices. You would need the to have storage space available to store these songs plus an additional ~ 1GB for syncing overhead.

The main difference right now between those services is Spotify Premium offers medium quality 320kbps compressed songs and Tidal offers higher fidelity uncompressed songs at a higher monthly fee.

Steve

dB Cooper · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 12:48 am »

You have a better handle on it than you seem to give yourself credit for. The ' Netflix-for-music' analogy is not too far off. Some if not all of the streaming providers do provide a download option that does allow you to keep and play content when you are not online as long as you remain a subscriber.

Sound quality, Tidal has a 'hi fi' option which streams losslessly compressed FLAC but AFAIK all of the others in the USA anyway are streaming lossy codecs. Another lossless contender, Qobuz, is supposedly due to launch in the US later this year. The Tidal Hi Fi option costs twice the standard version but is worth it for sound quality on good systems. It's probably a waste of money for a teenager with a Bluetooth speaker.

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 01:16 am »

Thank you very much, guys. I’ve read the comparisons of the different services on several websites; I’m pretty comfortable with how they all compare. Basically compressed vs red book vs high-res, catalog, price, etc. That all made perfect sense to me. What didn’t make sense was what they actually are.

So I sign up, make a playlist of sorts, and it starts playing. Then I have the option to download the songs to a device like my phone to listen through that (by itself or a connected system) offline, so that way I don’t have to use data. So if I’m going on a 3 hour drive, I download a bunch of music, connect my phone to my car stereo, and it’s available to play. If I want something else on the road, I can use data.

I subscribed to SiriusXM because I was getting bored with the same stuff, I got sick of radio stations playing the same thing and looking for stations while I travelled. A few months later, and it seems like SiriusXM plays the same stuff over and over again too. If it weren’t for Howard Stern, it would’ve been gone already.

Kdude66 · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 04:00 am »

I use only Tidal Hi Fi with Roon and I find myself listening to about a 50 50 mix of Tidal and my purchased music stored on a hard drive.Any of the streaming services are really great to have if you want to explore new music.

Try one you may love it.
Kenny.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 11:44 am »

I subscribe to Sirius as well and use it just for the car, not for streaming/home audio. Good service for the $ I think. My main hi-fi sources are Roon w/ my digital collection, Spotify and Pandora. I'm lucky as my DAC/system combo makes pretty much anything (except comcast) sound great. Pandora is good for just background mostly and that is all I use it for. The "are you still listening" question that pops up every 45 min or so and requires a mouse click, is annoying, but I understand their reasoning.
Spotify is much netter for me. I have discovered a ton of new music, created playlists, saved albums all in "my music". If fact it is sometimes it's a quandary as I discover new music to find it's right there on Spotify so why purchase?. I have bought however on HDTracks, Amazon etc to keep in my own collection. I was a JRiver guy, but I personally like Roon better. I have no need for Tidal given I'm very happy with my sound quality now. I don't use the Roon DSP as my DAC upsamples to DSD and simple is better imho anyway. I do have a separate zone for headphones as I currently own a Deckard amp, but may just sell that and use the pre. Less drivers = better. I run USB straight from Win/10 PC with Roon to DAC. I have stayed away from ethernet, bridges (even though my DAC has a bridge card) etc. as once again- simple = better for me. Good luck.. You will no doubt figure out what works best for you....I higly recommend Spotify and you can try it for free. I'm about 70/30 streaming vs Roon collection.

twitch54 · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 11:59 am »

Stu, thanks for starting this thread and those that have responded, thanks as well for I too am a Neanderthal when it comes to all this 'streaming'. Hopefully I can get educated somewhat ................

Roninaudio · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 12:08 pm »

It's not that hard really and with a little experimentation you can go a long way. This forum seems to have plenty of great guys to help guide you. Many are pretty smart too on this stuff. Like Rasberry Pi, bridge, Fidelilizer, flux capacitor smart. I just want stuff to work. I think a lot of us are like that. Then maybe look at what sounds the best as in "do no harm". Great forum for noobs and experts alike....

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 12:45 pm »

I'm currently on the 6 month free trial of Tidal (my only streaming experience) and have problems with it. Don't see how to access much of the music I want to listen to, sound quality seemingly not as good as my CD ripped onto iTunes library, and experiencing lots of dropouts. Have DSL with provider supplied wireless router, was in process to upgrade to fiber optic service but winter weather got in the way. Hopefully the new service will resolve the dropout and sound quality issues. And an audio friend who lives on Tidal can come over and give help with accessing the site.

Stu, you mentioned getting a Node. That friend uses Node stuff, in part because he was drawn to the MQA format. Bluesound Node is one of the cheapest ways to gain full use of MQA and Tidal has some MQA selections. Search AC for more info on MQA. Personally I'm not impressed with it. Prefer the original mixes I'm familiar with and the sound quality improvements are negligible, but YMMV.

Roninaudio · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 01:02 pm »

I'm going to conduct an experiment hopefully this weekend. I have "rediscovered" Acoustic Alchemy. One album in particular I have saved in Spotify and a buddy has on CD. I'm going to use JRiver to rip it to FLAC and compare the two. If there is a noticable difference, that my skew my future purchases.....

Emil · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 01:35 pm »

I'm thrilled with Tidal. Sound quality is excellent IMHO with the premium service

I had an issue with with my Bluesound initially as you can read here.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156534.0

Once I "hard wired" the internet connection with Netgear Powerline 1200 it has worked flawlessly. No dropouts what so ever.

May not have every album know to mankind but does have enough to keep things fresh for a very long time.

Stu
Setup was easy once I had internet connection to the Bluesound Node.

Tidal has a 30 day trial and the Bluesound Node thru Audio Advisor can be returned if not happy.

randytsuch · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 07:09 pm »

I'm on a 6 month tidal trail, started end of the year, for the hifi version.

I really like it, no drop outs or any other problems, although at one point I compared a song on tidal vs one I ripped from CD, and I thought my CD version sounded better. I should try that again just to make sure. And I use tidal to find new artists/songs, and it sounds fine to me.

If you run LMS (squeezeserver), you can add tidal as a LMS app. This is what I have been doing lately.

Randy

twitch54 · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 08:02 pm »

it's interesting that some are saying their CD versions sound better ? if true then I see no benefit other than background music. When I settle in for a listening session, 3 plus hours, I ONLY want the best my system can provide.

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Apr 2018, 09:42 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 7 Apr 2018, 12:45 pm

I'm currently on the 6 month free trial of Tidal (my only streaming experience) and have problems with it. Don't see how to access much of the music I want to listen to, sound quality seemingly not as good as my CD ripped onto iTunes library, and experiencing lots of dropouts. Have DSL with provider supplied wireless router, was in process to upgrade to fiber optic service but winter weather got in the way. Hopefully the new service will resolve the dropout and sound quality issues. And an audio friend who lives on Tidal can come over and give help with accessing the site.

Stu, you mentioned getting a Node. That friend uses Node stuff, in part because he was drawn to the MQA format. Bluesound Node is one of the cheapest ways to gain full use of MQA and Tidal has some MQA selections. Search AC for more info on MQA. Personally I'm not impressed with it. Prefer the original mixes I'm familiar with and the sound quality improvements are negligible, but YMMV.

Stupid question perhaps, JLM, but have you tried Ethernet rather than wireless? I get nonsense stuff happening with my wireless, but no issues with Ethernet. Perhaps this would solve issues rather than digging up your yard like I think you posted elsewhere?

Anything important gets Ethernet in my house.

JLM · « **Reply #14 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 11:50 am »

Quote from: Stu Pitt on 7 Apr 2018, 09:42 pm

Stupid question perhaps, JLM, but have you tried Ethernet rather than wireless? I get nonsense stuff happening with my wireless, but no issues with Ethernet. Perhaps this would solve issues rather than digging up your yard like I think you posted elsewhere?

Anything important gets Ethernet in my house.

Not a stupid question, don't have an ethernet connection into my computer or DAC.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #15 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 01:11 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 7 Apr 2018, 12:45 pm

I'm currently on the 6 month free trial of Tidal (my only streaming experience) and have problems with it. Don't see how to access much of the music I want to listen to, sound quality seemingly not as good as my CD ripped onto iTunes library, and experiencing lots of dropouts. Have DSL with provider supplied wireless router, was in process to upgrade to fiber optic service but winter weather got in the way. Hopefully the new service will resolve the dropout and sound quality issues. And an audio friend who lives on Tidal can come over and give help with accessing the site.

If you have DSL, that is probably the problem, not using wi-fi rather than ethernet. DSL was a 'kludge' to try to stretch the performance of existing phone-wire infrastructure. I had DSL once. That sh** was the worst internet I've ever had... worse than dial-up. (Literally: I had 50K on my last dialup connection and the DSL used to give me a pathetic ~14K... not making this up.) If a bird sat on the wire outside, internet dropped out. That can't be helping and is doubtless the root cause of the drop outs. Once you get internet that's worth a crap, check your connection settings to make sure it's set to 'hi fi' as default (you have to set it manually; it won't default there just because you're paying the extra). I have fiber optic now and dropouts are a rarity. I can't really tell a difference between streaming at the 'hi fi' setting and spinning Redbook but your ears may be more 'golden' than mine. It's one of those things that there's no 'objective' reason for but people hear differences anyway.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #16 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 04:23 pm »

Given the volume of information moving through the internet, I wonder how much that impacts the sound quality with respect to streaming music?

dB Cooper · « **Reply #17 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 04:31 pm »

As long as the stream is reassembled without audible dropouts, it shouldn't affect it at all, but I'm a 'bits are bits' guy. Any clocking errors would be eliminated when the signal is reclocked, as it will be by any remotely respectable DAC.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 04:34 pm »

I would also like to suggest to the OP that he try to figure out what service provider he wants to sign up with before buying a streamer. I bought an Auralic Aries Mini which is designed, or at least configured to work best with Tidal and not so much the other music service providers. That kind of sucks because I don’t like limiting my options.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #19 on:** 8 Apr 2018, 04:36 pm »

Quote from: dB Cooper on 8 Apr 2018, 04:31 pm

As long as the stream is reassembled without audible dropouts, it shouldn't affect it at all, but I'm a 'bits are bits' guy. Any clocking errors would be eliminated when the signal is reclocked, as it will be by any remotely respectable DAC.

If Tidal is supposed to offer CD sound quality, why are so many people saying that their CDP sounds better?