[pjchappy]

I'm at a loss at how so many 'reviewers' do not have room treatments.  It made a MAJOR improvement in my place. . .and was CHEAP (4" wedge foam from Foambymail.com).

This has been covered generally before, but. . .shit, son!


p

[warnerwh]

That's a great question. Sure makes you wonder how valid their reviews could possibly be.  Many of the things they describe could easily be related to the room and this may make something sound better or worse.  They're the "experts" with perfect hearing. I've lost alot of respect for reviewers and the lack of room treatment is one reason why.  It's total bullshit to say something about a component and not know what affect their room has on it's performance.  Two speakers with different designs will definitely act different in a treated room and alot different in an untreated room.  John Casler started a good thread that is related to this.

[denverdoc]

Amen! Which is exactly why I have not read a review in months. Partly this is an extension, as bizarre as it seems, to have recently spent 18 months w/o having watched a minute of commercial TV or radio. The impact on the quality of my life has been immeasureable. Sure I'm lost when it comes to chit-chat involving american pop culture, yet really a small price to pay for the absence of NOISE. Want to improve the s/n ratio of your life, get Dish and XM radio!

But I digress, Cordesman, Tellig,  C Greenberg (man has that cat done well with a tell it like it is philosophy) and a few others seem to have great integrity, and the folks over at Wide Screen review make this the one video mag worth reading, otherwise, the glossies are a lot of heavily subsidized dross.

And yes why trust a guy with +/- 10 dB measured room response, flutter echo up the wazee, reflections at the listening position that if visual, would send one to the nearest loonie bin, pontificate on  how much more focused imaging was with xyz IC vs abc brand? Man I have some nice land not in Florida, but up in North dakota--enjoys a microclimactic oasis from the prevailing winds and frigid temps!

[John Casler]

I'm at a loss at how so many 'reviewers' do not have room treatments.  It made a MAJOR improvement in my place. . .and was CHEAP (4" wedge foam from Foambymail.com).

This has been covered generally before, but. . .shit, son!


p

I recently posted one of the most prominent "on line" reviewers I could think of, regarding his room.

In looking at it, I truly wondered how he "heard" the speakers at all.  

He posted me back that "room interaction" was not a problem in his room  

So goes the argument.

We have to realize your room to an audio set up, is like a race track to a race car

You can spend $$$thousands$$$ for a Lamborghini and drive it on 65mph free ways and from stop light to stop light, or you can take it to the track and expereince the "REAL" perfromance of the car.

Many have Ferraris sitting in their living rooms, but until they create a track, they have "no idea" what the system will do.

Evaluating a system in a normal room, (off track) will "NOT" demonstrate the qualities and performance.

Imagine a car magazine trying to compare a Ferrari, Lambo, and Porshe, by driving around NYC, or LA???  

Let's see, easy to park, 1st and second gear are great, has great HTP (head turning power), can't reach parking garage tickets (too high), tires don't make any noise up to 40mph, engine feels smooth, from 2500 rpm to 3500rpm, brakes seem to work OK, etc.  

So most all the evaluations of every component by everyone from the most prestigious reviewer, to the beginner should be "tempered" with the assumption that they are limited, by the "test track" their driving on.

And as a final thought...Some will argue that striving to attain maximum enjoyment "within" their environment, is the goal, and $4K speaker cables "DO" make an improvement.

They are correct, but the comparison cannot be made to listening in a well treated room.

I have recently heard "even more" improvement due to further improvement of one of my "tweaks".  In fact the improvement is "startling" and it could bring "treated room" performance to those who "cannot" fully treat their rooms.

I will be doing some "testing" and research at CES, this year and will announce what I come up with.

[tkp]

The same thing apply to individual review by audio enthusiast.  With my recent experience with 8" wedge foam for acoustic treatment of first reflection, I must say that without proper room treatment most individual review is some what meaningless.  Speakers with narrow dispersion tend to do better than the one with wide dispersion pattern because of less interacting with the room.  I put a stop to my equipment upgrade for now and will work on treating the rooms in my house first.

[ctviggen]

I do believe you are right.  This Christmas, I bought some room treatments from Real Traps.  I bought 6 traps, two of which were purchased for in front of the TV for 2-channel and behind the listener for DVDs (to lessen the CC reflections, although I'm still experimenting with placement of these two).  I had previously done a test between two components (Ack Dack as DAC and Proceed AVP as DAC), before room treatment.  This previous test was pretty close.  After room treatment, and in particular the 2 traps in front of the RPTV, the Ack Dack blows away the Proceed AVP as DAC.  The room treatments helped to bring out the clarity and detail of the Ack Dack.  Now, the Proceed AVP sounds muddy in comparison.

[denverdoc]

Just curious--are people actually measuring room FR before/after room treatments, or just relying on ears? Seems to me good measurement is perhaps not absolutely necessary, but will certainly maximize benefits.

I also wonder about whether the narrow radiation pattern is necessarily true--seems like some pretty signif trade-offs involved.
J

[ctviggen]

I plan on measuring mine (I'm going to take out the room treatments -- which are on stands), measure the FR, put back in the room treatments, measure the FR.  I also plan on using measured FR to help with placement of the room treatments.  I tried to do this during my vacation, but I never got enough time to do so.  However, I think that FR measurements are going to back up what I've heard -- room treatments help a lot.

[John Casler]

Just curious--are people actually measuring room FR before/after room treatments, or just relying on ears? Seems to me good measurement is perhaps not absolutely necessary, but will certainly maximize benefits.

I also wonder about whether the narrow radiation pattern is necessarily true--seems like some pretty signif trade-offs involved.
J

J,

That is a very good question and I think, except for bass problems you are right.

The confounding issue is that from top to bottom the frequencies need a "sliding scale" treatment.

That is, "ALL" reflected frequencies need to be "taken out".

BUT... most find that BASS frequencies need to be "directed" as well as "trapped".

The problem with measuring, is that unless you really know what your doing (and I even question some of the experts) you may be "measuring" reflected frequencies that "are not" want you want in the reproduction system.

As far as the "trade offs" of Limited vs Wide dispersion, the only one I can think of is, attempting to have a "side by side" sweet spot so that two can "seriously" listen at the same time.

I would wonder just how much of one's serious listening is done "duo", and how close "guys" sit together.  

I would guesstimate that if we took a poll, while many would "suggest" they would like to have this ability, would they "sacrifice" detail, imaging and soundstage qualities, for the small amount of time they spend actually doing it.

I would say that if we spend 1% of the time listening "in the SS" with a friend, it is not worth it.

Wide horizontal and vertical dispersion might also allow you to have a few more highs when working at your desk or having your oatmeal off to the side, well out of the sweet seat, but those highs are the bain, we use room treatment to eliminate.

I have a whole thread, I saved about the subject and someday when I finish it, I'll throw it up here.

PS - Cory and I used to burn up the Audiophile Bulletin Board back in the 80s (before the internet) called "The AudioPhile Network" (TAN).

Many of the Pioneers used to drop in.  What a great time we had.  Strangely enough, we discussed many of the exact same topics with the exact same arguments.  Particularly the Subs vs Obs.

[Ethan Winer]

Guys,

What a great thread, and I agree completely. I too roll my eyes whenever I see reviewers who obviously have no room treatment describe their perception of the imaging from some recording or piece of gear.

Doc:

> are people actually measuring room FR before/after room treatments <

Most people can tell immediately that there's a huge improvement in clarity. But I'll point out that improving the room's frequency response is only half of what good room treatment does. The other half, every bit as important, is reducing modal ringing (in the bass range) and echoes and ambience (at mid/high frequencies). These do not show up in a raw response measurement, but more sophisticated analyzers like ETF can show the improvement very clearly.

--Ethan

[denverdoc]

Very helpful thread; I should have specified when referring to measurement, in addition to more conventional FR also talking about impulse response, both pre and post first reflections to see that they have in fact been properly attenuated.

I think we could argue the narrow v wide dispersion ad infinitum, but if your system does any sort of dbl duty with HT, there are many occasions when one might watch with a friend. Otherwise why not buy a really good set of headphones? In fairness I should say i am an advocate of line arrays, so that instead of dealing with three first reflection "areas", I'm dealing with mostly side walls reflections which to some extent are reduced by using dipoles, and in fact, LA's  become very directional in the mid to farfields.  (Yes then one has the backwall, to deal with, but that is manageable and spares your living room the recording stereo motif, as well as the inevitable colorations caused by a sealed box of any description).  The other potentially problematic area where trying to narrow the dispersion pattern is the disconcerting effect when going from say a monopole woofer to the next element up--I believe as many do, that the difficulty in making  hybrid systems sound really coherent, is not that woofers are too "slow" but instead the dramatic change in polar radiation patterns.

My plan BTW is once I get my DEQX up and running, identify the problematic reflection areas and treat these as digital alchemy can only go so far!  

J

[JLM]

Speaking of CES...

I'm amazed so many vendors show up and year after year complain about the room acoustics and/or fight with them throughout the show trying to make improvements.

(Yet the reviews seem to ignor them.)

If I was trying to impress folks, I'd reserve my room early and have it analyized/treated before the start of the show.  Better still, I'd scope out the choice of rooms way early and reserve the best performing one possible, perhaps analyize it then and come to the show with treatments/etc. in hand.

Instead I've read repeatedly that vendors stay home until the last minute tweaking this or that and rush to the show.  In a hurry is often in a hurry to make a mistake is one of my favorite sayings.

One of the vendors to the 203 Midwest Audio Fest (a very nice guy), didn't open his room until after noon on Saturday (it was only a weekend show).  Had a nice enough room, but a horrible setup with corner horns that had a queen sized bed and nightstand on the front wall in between and a thru window A/C unit partially blocking one speaker.  He admitted that they sounded boomy (they were a terrible muddy mess).  A second less expensive set up used a $300 Harmon Kardon receiver.  I happen to own the same receiver for a pudgy 2.1 HT system and I've never heard it sound so bad.

I lost a lot of respect for that guy's audio wits that day.  Why show if it gonna sound so bad?  Same question I ask about vendors at CES and other shows.  Maybe it shows how much consumers, even of high end audio, are "led" by those who don't know much about audio, who don't understand set up or room acoustics, and sure can shovel the hash.

[Mike-48]

I'm at a loss at how so many 'reviewers' do not have room treatments. It made a MAJOR improvement in my place. . .and was CHEAP

Yes -- and take a look at the pictures on Audiogon where folks are selling expensive gear. Very often one sees a $30,000+ system in a room with no acoustic treatment and bare floors. No wonder the owners are dissatisfied with the sound!

Well, it makes bargains for the rest of us.