[Bemopti123]

I spent about 3 hours, of what was supposed to be "eyeshopping" with my wife.  Like most men who post here and at other audio oriented sites, I first dropped by Best Buys to see the TV section.  There were many deeply discounted TV sets ranging from great looking plasma displays, to the ever present Samsung DLP sets and also, two HUGE, LCD and LCD rear projection displays from both Panasonic and also a new Sony, the measurement must have been about 65"+ for each.   The picture quality was excellent for both...then, I wandered off to other store in the mall, trying to call my wife, who was lost in the lady's section of Burlington Coat Factory, where there was no phone reception.  

I wandered back into Best Buys several times, after being unable to contact her.  After about 3 hours of doing this and returning to the car, and trying to hopelessly catch a nap, while people were driving by, opening and closing their car doors etc....I fell in to a strange state of mind.

I realized that these stores were packed, I mean fully packed with common Joe and common Jane looking for something to fill their living room space.  

I wondered how large their living room was in comparison to my punny room.

 I wondered what were they going to watch when they had bought these wall filling displays, that would make them feel that it was worth the expense and the wiring necessary to get them going.

Asides from this idea, I flashbacked to remember the audio portion of the store....The offerings, as you would guess were veritably Communist state run style.  A few Sony and Pioneer receivers.  Speakers with the badge of KLH, a shade of what Kloss had contributed to in the 70s.  etc....

Having thought about all of this, I wonder whether there are people out there who really see that their HT, which commanders all of the living room space available is really worth their space and time.  Whether, they feel that their audio sounds great when they listen to them via their HT gear.

I wonder whether the people who frequent audiogon and other sites are simply a lost batch of people who are just swimming against the current, by keeping systems whose simply 1 component like an amplifier could cost nearly as much as an entire HT audio system, speakers included.  

Perhaps, I wonder whether I have become an audio elitist pig or am I part of a more discerning group of people who have broken away from mass ignorance.  

Thinking back at the last time I have heard pop radio, it was about 4 years ago and not even often, for I heard of some artist through other media or promotion.  Now, I mostly use my Mcintosh MR-78 to listen to NPR, classical and perhaps some Jazz.  

Perhaps someone who has broken away from mass consumption electronics can enlighten me in how what what prompted them to opt for 2 channel, or found their way for a higher form of the same.

Or

Someone can tell me how they had broken down and gotten into multichannel, on their own choice or by popular pressure.

[WEEZ]

I can easily relate to your "strange state of mind". I often wonder about the same things. It could just be my age (53). My generation was about music. You just HAD to have good sounding music in your house. It could be that I grew up in a household that valued music.

You've heard the saying " It sounds good enough for me". Or; " I can't hear the difference in the expensive stuff- oh yeah, maybe, but I can't spend that much on just hi-fi".

The truth is, most people don't listen or even know how to listen. And you can see it in the demise of the high-end or even mid-fi retailers. They are scarce today except in large cities. And even then, relatively scarce.

Music today is for backround. It's downloaded. It's not respected. It's digital. But big-ass TV's are in almost every home. (I own a TV- and I enjoy it for sports, movies, and news- but I'll never give up my music).

My thoughts are- how do we bring audio back into the mainstream? Even cheap stuff from the mass merchants hasn't done it. Some say that there isn't any good music anymore. Bull. There's plenty of good music. You just don't hear it on the radio.

Thanks for bringing up the subject. Somehow, us audiophiles (geeks?) need to collectively decide how to promote music and sound to the masses.

WEEZ

[Carlman]

I got into 2-channel because I was amazed at how beautiful it could sound.  The cost was always prohibitive to getting anything 'really good' but I got the best I could based on my situation.  I grew up with parents who didn't appreciate music much before I was born and not at all by the time I came to be.  I think they were tolerant of it at best.  So, the idea of spending money on an album seemed ridiculous.

Also, I was very interested in electronics at an early age... So, between my fascination with gear and my parents' lack of zeal, it became a natural interest... and now obsession.

I tried really hard to hear what audiophiles heard but couldn't.  It was either good or.. if had more bass... better.  Since the gear I grew up with was crap, everything really was good in comparison!

Going 'multichannel' was never an option.  I was at the end of 8-tracks, middle of tapes... and then cd's were starting to pop up in the 80's.... So, 2-channel had made a huge leap by the time I started.  I had my choice of vinyl, cassette, or cd when I looked for music.  However, cd quickly became the norm when I bought a cd player.... and made tapes for my car.

I have found a handful of systems that cost less than 3-5,k that fully satisfy my needs for hi-fi reproduction.  This took years of discovery and experimenation.  I really like where I am.  I know what I like and I can finagle obtaining new gear if need be.  It's a toy, a hobby, a way to meet friends, and a deeply satisfying experience to be into hi-fi.  Whereas multichannel is just a toy to me.  It's a fun gimmick that sells more speakers to people who watch a lot of TV.  I understand it, I like it for some movies but it doesn't improve the movie experience enough for me to spend time on it like 2-channel.  With 2-channel you paint your own picture using gear you've chosen and your imagination combined.  That's what I like.  

So, no, I don't feel like I'm swimming upstream.  I feel like I'm swimming in another stream, separate from the Best Buy shoppers, and every once in a while, a fellow swimmer stops by and says hello and we share a few stories about our travels.  I like that stream much better.

[mcgsxr]

I started into music when I first started playing the violin, at age 7 - I had been pestering my parents for 3 years by that time, and they finally caved, since my grandfather on one side had played.  I took the Suzuki method, but played by ear mostly, eventually being called on that by my 5th teacher, when he was having me learn a few 9th level pieces - you cannot read music he blankly stated one day.  Hmmn, learning to read music actually ruined the whole thing for me, I ended up retiring that instrument 2 years later at 15.

I got my first music reproduction device in 1982 - a Sony blaster, with dual tape deck (ooh aah!).  I saved $$ all through high school, and treated myself to a Yamaha integrated in 1st year University, along with some terrible speakers.  Blew those, and "graduated" to my buddies CAR box, with twin 12's, 2 6 inch mids, and 4 tweeters.

Ahem, years later, I got into surround sound in the early 90's - my buddy had a stereo vcr and 29 inch tv.  So I popped for a Yammie surround receiver, and some Paradigm speakers.   Returned the passive sub for a Yammie powered sub, and bought some Boston surrounds.  There we were, in all that Pro Logic glory.

But something was missing.

The next year I happened into a local store (behind a mountain bike store, that was my passion at that point), and heard something that to this day haunts me - Rebecca Pidgeon's "The Raven" on some YBA and Maggies I think.  Sat down, and listened to 4 tracks in a row.  The owner Marc, popped his head in, saw some kid, said hi and left.  I came out later, and said - nice, have anything that I might be able to afford?  He laughed, and we made an appointment for me to come back.

He demo'd some Onkyo receivers, and then plopped the Sugden A28B into place.  Wow, that IS nice.  Sure, out went the Vandy's, and in with the Totem Rokk.  Mmmmmn that sure works well together.  Out went the Sony 5 changer, and in went the Micromega Stage 1.

Oops, ran out of money after the Totems, the Atlantis Reference stands, and that Sugden integrated.

That was my shift to 2 channel, for real, even on a limited budget.

This year, after 10 with that system, I found THIS place, and have systematically replaced each portion of that 10 year old system.  I love the way it sounds now, and I was happy with how it sounded for 10 years there.

My wife though, she likes surround sound.  I like 2 channel (well OK, it IS 2.1) and nice tv's.  We cannot afford a nice tv, but have gone to gawk at nice stuff together.  The turning point for her was sitting down in front of a 65 inch tv, with the Lion King playing.  When the lion roared from behind her, she was IN - you HAVE to set that up at home - "for god's sake, the time and money you spend on stereo, and it STILL all comes from in front of you...".  Yes dear, I will incorporate a surround system, but on my terms.  Done.

So, I end up having both, but loving my 2 channel system.  As the HT improves (hey, I am still enjoying the wonders of Pro Logic...) I MAY find it entrancing, but I suspect it will always just be airplanes and explosions to me - I am strictly a 2 channel listener.

Now, as for BB and those kinds of stores - great for Sony Grand Vega tv's, but scary for audio.  My middle brother has an Energy Take 5 setup with Yammie receiver - he loves it, even though the mains AND center channel are wedged into an A/V unit, and his surrounds are at different heights, and positions in his room.

Like many other things - some people get it, some don't.

That said, I help ANYONE who asks me about sound, or vision, since I am interested in it, and all my friends are glad that they asked, since I take the time to find out what they want, and what they want to spend, THEN make suggestions - not everyone wants 10 IC's...

A long story, about a crazy Canuck, who grows older, but cannot seem to grow up...

[JLM]

Not to slam, but what is out there to watch that makes it worth spending thousands and dominating a room in your house for?

O.K. sports is a good excuse as it's not reruns (except ESPN classic) and its fun to watch with a crowd.

Action movies is not worth it IMO because there just isn't that many and reruns are for folks without a life.

What's left?

Music and TV both suffer from a glut of medicore at best programming.

Music makes a connection to the right side (emotional) side of the brain and gives much needed balance to our lives.  Studies have shown that the brain is less active watching TV than sleeping!

[Dmason]

Music to me is like air. It is and has always been there, my entire life. I grew up with Beethoven. Meade Lewis. All kinds, from Bebop to Bach and back.  Grew up at the crossroads of East coast symphonic refinement, where it all meets southern, country, jazz, and bluegrass: Virginia, a place with a rich tradition of music. Parents got me into piano lessons when I figured out the rudiments of Glenn Miller's 'In The Mood' aged five. Ten years later, actively played music to make money. Played Rock  n roll to meet girls. Did quite well on both accounts.

Brandy of the damned, orgasm of the soul, whatever, it is inherent, to my life.

I have to say that the quality of the reproduction, in its ability to communicate to me, has increased greatly in the last while. My conclusion is that it cost less than ever to intelligently and sensitively assemble good sound.

There are two kinds of people. The kind that get it and the kind that don't. If one doesn't know what I am talking about, they probably belong to the latter. I don't "get" TV...

[Ulas]

I don’t understand multi-channel audio. I heard/saw a couple demos at Rocky Mt. Audio Fest. On a giant screen I saw images of Mark Knopfler or Carlos Santana in front of me but sound of their voices and guitars came from some where behind me and were out of sync with the video. It was wholly unrealistic and disconcerting. What’s more, neither the audio or video quality was very good. But then, I often have trouble accepting the unrealistic audio images in stereo recordings like pianos and drum kits that appear to be 14 feet wide.

I don’t understand home theater, either. The dialog is looped and sound effects are artificial. Nothing sounds like it was recorded in the acoustic space that is depicted on the screen. Every time and automobile starts or stops the tires chirp, even if the car is on a dirt road. All gunshots sound the same whether the gun is fired indoors or outdoors.  At RMAF is watched a HT demo. One clip showed a racing catamaran capsizing, in slow motion. There was a big BOOM when the mast hit the water that sounded like a bass drum recorded at the bottom of a stairwell with a lot of reverb. Reverb in the middle of the ocean?

My love of music and audio began long before stereo or even LPs. I grudgingly accepted stereo but, beyond that, I think the application modern technology has been a disservice to the music. I’m talking about digital and multi-channel audio. If you feel as I do, why would you even set foot inside a big-box audio/appliance store?

[nathanm]

I've bought a few multi-channel music titles so far and I think that unless the music is created with surround in mind from the start it doesn't work.  So far I have not liked most of the 5.1 mixes of previously-released stereo albums.  For regular 3-5 piece band type of music having instruments in the rears seems wrong.  I would prefer a much more front-centric mix if anything, with just ambient stuff in the rears.  But I did really like Yes "Fragile" and ELP "Brain Salad Surgery" and Blue Man Group in 5.1,  That kind of music with lots of synth-type sounds flying around you seems to make more sense.  The Elton John and Megadeth surround mixes I just didn't care for; there's piano and strings in the rears yet he's singing in the center channel.  Too strange.  The Megadeth disc has drums in all 5 channels, which I just don't get.  But the band is ga-ga over it in the video interview.  

It would be interesting to hear a multi-channel recording where each performer was hard-tied to an individual speaker.  (or with a very little amount of spread) Are there such recordings out there?

[Carlman]

The Megadeth disc has drums in all 5 channels, which I just don't get. But the band is ga-ga over it in the video interview.
 ...

That's because it sounds cool... there's like drums all over, dude! Awesome!  That is what sells surround.  I used to sell surround sound by putting a stereo cd in 'Hall' mode... "Oooo... that's cool..." the customer would usually say.  They're not after faithful reproduction... they want it a new way.  The old way's worn off.  In this respect, you could say 2-channel is just a gateway sound to 5-channel... then 6, then 7... oh, and don't forget that .1 speedball you'll have to try over the weekend...

Accomplished musicians generally (not always) have the worst taste in hi-fi gear.  Which makes sense to me... because they can make the real thing any time they want.... I wish I could.

[woodsyi]

I was very impressed with Dark Side of the Moon SACD, and the idea that I could have a home theater with pause button was very appealing, especially with 1 year old girl at the time.  I started looking at HTIB's at BB and CC but couldn't stand the sound.  I heard a Def Tech 7.1 system at Myer Emco (regional midfi store) and was impressed with the theater sound but not for music.  I read everying I could find about home theater, multi channel SACD and DVD-A on line and determined that the best "value" was in internet direct products.  I spent way too much time putting up wallmounting brackets (no stands with a toddler to be), inwall wiring and rearranging furniture.  I got everything together and my wife and I ocasionally enjoy a movie together.  Mostly, it serves as an excellent DVD player for Baby Einstein products!   Since the rear surrounds are mounted over the dining room, they also serve (in 7 channel stereo mode) as excellent back ground ambiance music (light classical on Direct TV music channel) player for the rare candle light dinners.  It also serves as great "baby sitter" when we have friend with children over.  Little boys just love watching Ice Age on the system.  There are many uses for this thing.

As for music, especially classical and operatic music, the multichannel/hometheater system, for me, is not as good as my dedicated 2 channel set up.  I am sure if I used comparable speakers (7.1 VMPS speakers as I have seen on some posters) the sound will be better, but I don't see how to play vinyl records on multichannel without digitizing them first.  But then what is the point of having an anolog system?  So, I will stick with my stereo for my serious music!

[Rob Babcock]

I think that both the McCormack MAP1 and Margules Daleth MC preamps use an analog surround processor.  So does the Trinaural Processor that won Best of Show with VMPS speakers the last time.  Might be worth trying if you want faux surround.  BTW, no knock meant.  While I haven't heard it, Jim Romyen (my appologies I mispelled your name, Jim ) really loves the MAP1, if I recall, and it seems like Big B speaks highly of the TriN.

[Jose Garcia]

Hi guys.

My solution was, having a dedicated room for my two-channel listening and a HT system at the great-room for my kids to watch TV and DVD's, while I watch some sports and other stuff... I can't stand multichannel audio like most of you. But I can appreciate a good movie or program with a 36" screan and a decent HT system.

Regarding to the music, I think there is not much to hear from the new generation on radio....and if you want good music, you have too swimm through the stations to find a good one with enough taste to fill your needs. My kids love music, their music. One is into heavy-rock, the other is a Hip-Hop fan and my little princess is a latin Pop and everything else fan. The good thing is, they like my Jazz and stuff too and sat down with me at my room for a listen.

Time changes, and the way to access music too. Now a days, it is easier to download music than to hear to records and buy ( even when we can almost always hear a track from the net). I still love to buy an old LP or pick some CD's. It is a natural thing to do from past times ( are we growing old? ).

BB and others...Yes, they are for Joe and Jill but we can enter too. It is great when you can help someone to pick something from the garbage or see the face of a salesman when you just bring the light to a shopper and ruin the sales  . Even watching the face of a shopper when you try to explain something and they just think you are "nuts" ... Some people put $2K into a cheap receiver with 7 speakers plus sub-woofer and a DVIX ( yes, there are some out there... )...when they could buy some decent NAD and Paradigm combo ( to mention a brand)...But do they now what the heck does NAD, NHT, PSB, YBA, etc mean?

Bose...Ask any person what does Bose is and you will get a right response 99 out of 100 times...Promotion. Now ask what Conrad and Johnson is...a new shampoo? a new hamburger cooker? a cleanning machine?.....

I will keep spinning my black "freezebees" and my 2-channel CD's and think more about music than to why people don't get it....do the same and enjoy

Jose.

[woodsyi]

Rob,  I like that -- faux surround.  If I get a chance, I will try to demo one but I would be very surprized if I like it.  It would seem to be a lot of additional circuitry a signal has to go through.  May be it is alright since it isn't pretending to preserve the signal at this point but to alter it.  Who knows, maybe Mantovani LP's coud use  the ambiance recovery!

[lcrim]

Home Theatre was the starting point for my interest in music again.  I started with a modest HT system about 5 years ago.   Somewhere along the way I found that listening to music, I mean really listening, cut through a lot of the stress that had become a part of my life.
About six months ago, in a moment of clarity, I noticed that my living room resembled a speaker showroom.  I got rid of the surround system for a HT that is 2.1 and a lot of the time the TV never gets turned on.  
I don't know what the 2 channel market place was like before a few years ago but for a reasonable price, you can put together a really nice music system.  
I just did a project w/ a consultant who was telling me about his 50" plasma and how great his Bose surround system sounded with really tiny speakers.  I didn't even try to persuade him otherwise.

[Carlman]

telling me about his 50" plasma and how great his Bose surround system sounded with really tiny speakers....

That's what's in.  That consultant has done exactly what society dictates a successful person should do.  Did he drive a luxury car also?

Most people do what they're told... or at least manipulated to believe is the right thing to do.  Manufacturers paid a lot of money for that consultant to believe he is now cool.  It will last less than a year, though.  

The manufacturers and easily led public have created a cycle of consumption that ignores the art of music.  Based on the current BestBuy/Circuit/Tweeter/Etc. plan it's not about the music, it's about the money.  It's as clear as ever.  Buy cheap crap now, realize it's crap, come back and buy more expensive cheap stuff, add 1, repeat, etc.  

Next year your consultant will say, yeah, that last stuff was crap... you ought to see the new Bose speakers... they're even smaller now...and Plasma?  What was I thinking... it's all ball-bearings now...