Amplifiers with IcePower 1200AS2, class D module

maty · « **Reply #200 on:** 15 May 2018, 08:51 am »

Now we have a poweramp with Z(w) and traditional speakers with Phase < 45 degree. A new variable.

********* ***********

I would like a poweramp without harmonics too. The harmonics, if I want, from preamp (SE topology: H2 predominant).

If you add harmonics, worse, H3 harmonics, we have a new variable in the sound quality. PS Audio M700 with the own buffer (H3 predominant, and very noisy too -buffer, PSU or both) and IcePower 700AS2.

I want less variables in que equation! Poweramp with real output impedance (R) and without harmonics.

JohnR · « **Reply #201 on:** 15 May 2018, 10:07 am »

Quote from: maty on 15 May 2018, 08:16 am

P = Vdc*Vdc / Z

It seems that you are somehow conflating the load impedance with the output impedance. They are very different. Refer to this diagram - the 1200AS2 graph of output impedance (in magnitude and phase form) that you keep (erroneously) referring to is the voltage/current relationship across Zg only.

maty · « **Reply #202 on:** 15 May 2018, 10:18 am »

The question is/was always the same.

The poweramp, like many others things, is as a black box system. You can emulate/modeling it based on the output measurements vs the inputs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

I say that if IcePower answered my email or wrote a note or ... it would be clear to everyone.

The question I asked is simple: which is the graph of the output ~~impedance~~ phase of the 1200AS2 class D module?

Why they do not give signs of life?

JohnR · « **Reply #203 on:** 15 May 2018, 10:55 am »

Quote from: maty on 15 May 2018, 10:18 am

The question I asked is simple: which is the graph of the output impedance of the 1200AS2 class D module?

maty · « **Reply #204 on:** 15 May 2018, 11:04 am »

Output phase.

nc42acc · « **Reply #205 on:** 23 May 2018, 05:50 pm »

Dropped in my Nord 1200AS in place of my Hattor NC500 based mono amps. Out of the gate the 1200 throws a spectacular soundstage, left, right, front, back and up. Very 3D and airy sounding with almost exaggerated detail. Sounding a little thin but it is early. It does some amazing things and is a very initial WOW sounding amp.

A crazy contrast I thought about as I carried the Nord in the house under one arm. I remember needing a hand truck and some serious heave ho to get my Parasound A21 in the house. Maybe this is why it sounds a little thin

richidoo · « **Reply #206 on:** 23 May 2018, 07:12 pm »

Congrats on your new amp Marty! My 1200AS2 sounded a little off when brand new, it will improve some. My speakers dip to 2.9ohms, just a tad under the minimum allowable impedance for ICEedge, making it possible to get 1400 watts out of ICEedge if my voice coils and ears could take it. I would never need that much, but I like having that power reserve, as it dowses my amp anxiety. I never worry about the amp clipping or distorting, or breaking anymore. When I first got it I observed my programmed reactions from years of using small DIY amps that whenever music played low and loud, I would tense up and listen for problems instead of relax and enjoy the music. I'm very satisfied with the tone quality too, and that's saying something for me. Small, light and cool too! I almost bought a decade old Edge amp a week before I got this, so glad I waited.

maty · « **Reply #207 on:** 28 May 2018, 08:03 am »

Ten years ago, Lyngdorf SDA-2175, I see a RF/EMI filter inlet with class-D.

[IMG] http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/electronics/lyngdorf/power-amplifier/sda-2175-1-lyngdorf.jpg

Inside the new class-D Lyngdorf TDAi 2170 Integrated Stereo, with discrete and complex RF/EMI filter.

[IMG] https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/media/lyngdorf/tdai2170/tdai_l_9-large.jpg

The IcePower 1200AS2 has a simple RF/EMI filter.

[IMG] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/hard/Mivera-Purepower-SE-IcePower-1200AS2.jpg

I still think is a good idea try with a Schaffner RF/EMI filter inlet (or in a DIY power cable, with Schurter IEC C14 connector). Trial and error.

mocenigo · « **Reply #208 on:** 30 May 2018, 02:24 pm »

Quote from: nc42acc on 23 May 2018, 05:50 pm

Dropped in my Nord 1200AS in place of my Hattor NC500 based mono amps. Out of the gate the 1200 throws a spectacular soundstage, left, right, front, back and up. Very 3D and airy sounding with almost exaggerated detail. Sounding a little thin but it is early. It does some amazing things and is a very initial WOW sounding amp.

A crazy contrast I thought about as I carried the Nord in the house under one arm. I remember needing a hand truck and some serious heave ho to get my Parasound A21 in the house. Maybe this is why it sounds a little thin

Note that the Hattor monoblocks have a subpar custom buffer: AFAIK it is based on the Hypex one, just modified to allow opamp rolling and with better components (but I am not sure about the values), they use the Hypex voltage regulators which are not as good as the Sparkos regulators, and the New Class D opamps which are indeed great, but in my opinion inferior to Sparkos and Sonic Imagery (I could compare all three of them in my headamp, not in the Apollon buffers, because I have only one DEXA, and I have the best one, the Ultimate, and two each of the other two).

So it is entirely believable that the 1200AS2 sounds better than that. But a better buffer and better opamps will make a huge difference on the NC500 based amps. Technology evolves. OTOH the Hattor passive preamps (or their little brother Khozmo) and the looks in general of their products are great. And the new ice edge tech is splendid competition for Bruno Putzeys, which is a very good thing indeed for all of us.

Roberto

maty · « **Reply #209 on:** 30 May 2018, 02:37 pm »

Inside Hattor NC500

[IMG] http://www.hattor.com/images/nc500_premium/4.jpg

Hypex SMPS heatsink does not protect the NC500 module, bad decission. And short distance too.

Same bad decission in Nord NC500. At least the distance is greater than in Hattor. Then is OK.

[IMG] http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nord/open1.jpg

Nord NC500 stereo

[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1120,h_840,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg

Apollo NC800SL, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.

[IMG] https://www.apollonaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Apollon-Audio-Hypex-Nc500-based-Amplifier-top.jpg

Rouge Audio STUDIO N-7, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.

[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg/v1/crop/x_534,y_228,w_1739,h_1284/fill/w_600,h_443,al_c,q_80,usm_2.00_1.00_0.00/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg

I can see a RF/EMI filter.

Studio19atx · « **Reply #210 on:** 30 May 2018, 07:50 pm »

Quote from: maty on 30 May 2018, 02:37 pm

Inside Hattor NC500

[IMG] http://www.hattor.com/images/nc500_premium/4.jpg

Hypex SMPS heatsink does not protect the NC500 module, bad decission. And short distance too.

Same bad decission in Nord NC500. At least the distance is greater than in Hattor. Then is OK.

[IMG] http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/nord/open1.jpg

Nord NC500 stereo

[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_1120,h_840,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/bee373_558296dd2b0946578b76a0aa1db06d3a~mv2_d_4032_3024_s_4_2.jpg

Apollo NC800SL, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.

[IMG] https://www.apollonaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Apollon-Audio-Hypex-Nc500-based-Amplifier-top.jpg

Rouge Audio STUDIO N-7, with NC500 in stereo, the Hypex SMPS heatsinks are better placed.

[IMG] https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg/v1/crop/x_534,y_228,w_1739,h_1284/fill/w_600,h_443,al_c,q_80,usm_2.00_1.00_0.00/ae8ca7_84e167196cc94daf91064a01d65f4b7c~mv2_d_2529_2144_s_2.jpg

I can see a RF/EMI filter.

Does the vicinity of the heat sink mainly affects the RF/EMI? NAD M22 looks like has a steel barrier between the power supply and the amplifier modules.

maty · « **Reply #211 on:** 30 May 2018, 08:01 pm »

The heatsinks works as a shield.

The very expensive Hypex SMPS are of low RF/EMI radiation, so leaving a reasonable distance there will be no problems.

If the case has space, the logical thing is to take advantage of that shield <- good engineering.

maty · « **Reply #212 on:** 31 May 2018, 09:42 am »

To finish with Hattor NC500, a thread in other forums:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31985-hattor-audio-class-d-hypex/

The more interesting is in the page 3, by Roberto, aka mocenigo.

-> https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31985-hattor-audio-class-d-hypex/?do=findComment&comment=794493

Studio19atx · « **Reply #213 on:** 31 May 2018, 03:08 pm »

Quote from: maty on 30 May 2018, 08:01 pm

The heatsinks works as a shield.

The very expensive Hypex SMPS are of low RF/EMI radiation, so leaving a reasonable distance there will be no problems.

If the case has space, the logical thing is to take advantage of that shield <- good engineering.

Thank you for the reply. I have seen Copper shielding/cage for similar purpose but they were mostly in the application that had antenna.

nc42acc · « **Reply #214 on:** 31 May 2018, 06:17 pm »

Are we comparing how the modules are placed in the cases or how they sound? Is there anyone else in this thread that are owners of the Hattor, Nord NC500 and Nord 1200AS amps? I will be stand on what my ears are telling me.

maty · « **Reply #215 on:** 31 May 2018, 06:35 pm »

Looking at how they have implemented the same module we will get an idea of how careful the seller is.

The best inside is the Apollo Audio. With a case with fewer holes it would be better I think.

Some seem that as they sell amplifiers could sell refrigerators or... I like to appreciate the love of a work well done.

geek101 · « **Reply #216 on:** 4 Nov 2018, 06:46 am »

Would the following graph from Hypex NC500 spec: https://www.hypex.nl/documenten/download/854 be equivalent to a section of graph of the 1200AS2 ICE module for comparison?.

maty · « **Reply #217 on:** 30 Dec 2018, 11:08 am »

Amirm has measured the frequency/phase response of Hypex NC400 at my request. When it is possible, with the NC500 and others.

After correctly setting the very expensive AP analyzer, with external AES-17 filter.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/post-133012

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/post-133014

Quote

There are actually two types of AES-17 filters for Audio Precision analyzers.

* One is internal and is designed to give you the standardized bandwidth for general work. That filter is NOT sufficient for class-D amplifiers, nor delta-sigma DACs with a lot of noise shaping. These products have such high slew rate that they screw up the front-end of the analyzer, resulting in erroneous THD measurements and may even confuse the auto-scalar.

* For these measurements, you must use the external, passive AES-17 filter as I have been using...

Well, there are phase shift but much less than IcePower 1200AS2, 700AS2 or Pascal M-Pro modules. Better engineering with frequency/phase in Hypex NC400.

JohnR · « **Reply #218 on:** 30 Dec 2018, 01:52 pm »

Quote from: maty on 30 Dec 2018, 11:08 am

Well, there are phase shift but much less than IcePower 1200AS2, 700AS2 or Pascal M-Pro modules. Better engineering with frequency/phase in Hypex NC400.

You STILL don't understand how to read these graphs, despite someone else pointing out your error to you in that same thread!! Your conclusion is invalid.

Quote

You made the same mistake with the three graphs you posted of class D amps (can't find the post now, it was yesterday or the day before). The first graph showed one amp's impedance response, while the other two graphs showed the phase of the other two amps' frequency response.

(My emphasis)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-hypex-nc400-diy-amp.5907/page-11#post-132989

maty · « **Reply #219 on:** 30 Dec 2018, 02:55 pm »

You can modelate any amp like an Impedance and a source (voltage usually, SS). The source is ideal, without impedance. Only V and/or I. Only we have Ohm's law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law ALL is EASY. Only V(f) (or I) varies with the frequency in the source.

[Big IMG] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/51/Internal_resistance_model.svg/1280px-Internal_resistance_model.svg.png

With class A and class AB the impedance is only resistive (r). With SS amp, voltage varies and the traditional (dynamic) loudspeakers (R+jX(f)) respond according to said excitation.

With class D the impedance is not only resistive. The excitation will depend on the voltage(f) and the x(f).

Explain how in a laboratory you will use a class D amplifier with this problem to study the exact response of the speakers.