Vintage amps versus new equipment?

jswallac · « **on:** 31 Dec 2004, 05:53 pm »

Perhaps this is as controversial as the tubes versus solid state debate, but thought I'd ask. I am looking for something to replace the tube amp I just sold and noticed some really nice looking vintage model Fisher amps over at Agon. For under $500 you can pick up a restored integrated amp that includes a fully tubed phono section (a needed stage in that era) and a headphone output. In fact, one of the units is available with an optional wired remote (if one can be located). I have read that these vintage amps, when restored, perform better than several thousand dollar newer stuff. Then again, $500 newer stuff is often said to sound as good as $2000 units. And $2,000 units are said to sound as good as units costing twice as much. And so on. I suppose if we put it all together, the $500 unit should perform as will as a $10,000 amp if I remember my algebra correctly! At any rate, has anyone actually listened to a vintage amp in good shape against a decent newer unit? What do you think? It is hard to imagine any electronics that was as good 40 years ago as newer stuff. I remember my first calculator, TV, cell phone, computer, etc. Why would all these things get sooo much better, but amps not? Thanks for your thoughts.

Marbles · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Dec 2004, 06:14 pm »

I have a lot of solid state vintage equipment from the 70's and very early 80's.

The Onkyo receivers I like a lot.

The Sansui amps and integrateds have a lot of negative feedback, which means they are very clean and unemotional.

Fisher receivers were supposed to be VERY good. If it were me, I would take a chance on it.

markC · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Dec 2004, 06:29 pm »

I am currently running an early '80's NAD amp in my second system. I've owned this unit for 20 years, (bought used). I sold a newer NAD amp that I purchased new in 2000 because I enjoy the vintage gear's sound much more. It has a solid sound to it, whereas the newer unit sounded bright and etched to my ears. The vintage unit just sounds less solid state. I do remember Fisher stuff from the '80's' (the ones with all the flashing lights and claims of a zillion watts), sounded awfull.

ohenry · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Dec 2004, 07:19 pm »

I bought a Denon receiver in the late '90's for my kitchen and I wasn't impressed with it's sound at all. The remote was nice, but that was about the only good thing to say. My 17 year old Cambridge amp and preamp recently took it's place and the sonic improvement was obvious. All this time I though it was a problem with the room characteristics. I relate completely to markC's remark regarding "solid sound".

I would be hesitant to buy new mid-fi equipment when there's old stuff out there that has good sonic and build character at affordable prices. I'll tolerate a few nicks and scratches on the vintage equipment (we all have them too) and I don't mind getting up to adjust the volume.

The only bad thing I can say about vintage equipment is the quality of the cords and connectors, but that can be fixed.

Songforyou · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Dec 2004, 07:31 pm »

I've had a Mapleshade modified Scott 222C integrated for about 7 months now. I love it. A little more expensive, but they've done a great job and I'm not a DIYer. They do Heathkits as well. The Scotts have a phono stage and some models have a headphone out too.

Check them out online or call Mapleshade for info.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/index.php

Good luck.

Pocketchange · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 12:03 am »

www.audiokarma.com

A good place to form an opinion or start one...

Mine:
For an investment of pennies on the dollar, some of the older gear
is hard to improve on. Spend some time and draw your own conclusions
on which brand to follow.
I've listened to a lot of systems and have been stuck with a Pioneer SX 1250 for 25 plus years. It was purchased because I sold a nice component (tube) system and was more than blown away with the features of the SX1250. If quality of build is a concern, the SX1250 has plenty. IMO you would have to spend $3,500 plus to come up with anything better in todays marketplace. It will power any set of speakers or for that matter any two sets of speakers to db levels that will invite the law to show up at your door, unless you live in Ozark County, Mo.
A well funded friend with his newly purchased setup, invited me over to
AB with my SX1250. I left it with him for a couple of weeks and when I went back to retreive it, was suprised to find it had been returned and a
nice looking SX1250 in its place, bought from AudioGon.
Finding one isn't hard, finding one in good shape will take some time.

JohnR · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 02:18 am »

Quote from: jswallac

It is hard to imagine any electronics that was as good 40 years ago as newer stuff.

Well, tubes and transformers haven't changed much, for the most part, and in fact achieving the same quality now as some of the older production parts is very expensive. Sockets are still sockets, etc. Resistors and capacitors are much better, but then again, replacing all of them will also change the sound -- not necessarily for the better!

Push-pull circuits were pretty much sorted by the mid 50's, as far as I can tell (I am not an expert but I have studied a number of the vintage schematics!). That's not to say that there have not been innovations but still, the basic performance of the older circuits is very good.

For me, part of owning vintage gear is the charm of it. In my case that includes the joy (hah hah) of replacing chunks of the innards... having said that, I'm a little suspicious when people go bananas over the sound of some particular vintage item. My experience is that the vintage gear (I am talking about late 50's - early 60's tube gear) has its own sound, and it's often very listenable and enjoyable. But anything that old will need more care and attention than a (good) new unit.

Where is the ad?

JohnR (listening now through Dynaco Mark 3s and Quad ESL 57s)

JohnR · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 02:24 am »

Quote from: Pocketchange

www.audiokarma.com

Oops! That should be www.audiokarma.org

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 02:38 am »

Audio Karma is a cool site, but beware of sacred cows!

Good place to form an opinion or express one, so long as you toe the party line.

Merle · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 03:41 am »

Check out this link. This guy always has a nice selection of vintage Marantz receivers. I bought a 2252B from him that looks and operates like brand new. Nice stuff.
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQgotopageZ1QQsassZsstk100QQsorecordsperpageZ50QQsosortpropertyZ1

kbuzz3 · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 04:58 am »

With out trying to start a flame war. Vintage tube amps IMHO are different then vintage solid state. Stated otherwise, while tube designs were being or already finalized, both triode and push pull, solid state was in its infancy.

with that background. I would heartily reccomend going with a fisher tube product. I have owned both a 500 reciever and an x101D integrated. They are musical musical msuical and have some guts to them. I also use a fisher 400 c , restored, as my current pre amp. This is a bit more old fashion sounding but a realy nice unit.

IN sum, if you can buy a restored piece, or konw someone who can help replace any againg agps restorers and diodes etc. you can do great having a vintage tube picee. Same goes for scott of the period.

good luck or send the amp to be restored by a specialists in addition to the beter dolar value you will have the pride of american craftsmenship and design and a piece that holds its value. plus the styling is really cool.

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Jan 2005, 02:09 pm »

While I appreciate vintage stuff, I also recognize that much of the attraction is more romantic than practical. Yes, there's much to like in the styling from the years gone by and its fun to reminise.

Like the pyramids, only the really great stuff should have survived long enough to reach vintage status. Just because its old doesn't mean that it was ever considered good. Or just because it still works doesn't mean it ever sounded good.

Vintage equipment was designed to go with other vintage equipment and to produce a sound different than what is marketed today. Today's sound is tighter and leaner than in years past.

Naturally vintage gear will demand more involvement to keep it functional than current comparible equipment. And it will probably be harder to find an unbiased opinion on some of it (due to the romance factor). Hopefully quality stuff built today is better than quality stuff was built years ago.

I agree that older tube gear is nearly always better than transistor.

jswallac · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Jan 2005, 02:17 am »

I want to thank one and all for the useful comments. As many noted, I was more concerned about tube gear, not SS. My takeaway for these comments is that tube design has not really changed much, if at all, from the 60s. The biggest change seems to be backwards, in the use of cheaper parts, build quality, etc. You need to pay big bucks to get the point to point wiring, etc. of the older stuff. I was on the fence, but just went ahead and bought a fully restored Fisher X-202-C. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1108052883 Thanks again.

4ears · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Jan 2005, 02:58 am »

You done good, jswallac. *IF* something like that were on the market today, it would be priced in the thousands. Fully restored like this one, you got yourself a bargain, one that will involve you in the music more than *any* solid state amp.