noob trying to timbre match

sponger · « **on:** 29 Dec 2004, 11:11 pm »

babcock threw the nomenclature "timbre matching" at me the other day. I'm still somewhat in the dark about what that term really encompasses.

Now I'm really concerned about timbre matching my center channel with my front speakers. I've decided on going with the Polk R30 for front speaks because they're super cheap on outpost.com right now with free shipping. Plenty of Polk center speaks are offered on the net, but they all seem to be meant to be matched up with the Polk monitor series, not the R series.

Would it be advisable to give madisound a call and see if they can timbre match me a DIY center?

bubba966 · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Dec 2004, 06:50 am »

Figuring there might be a definition of timbre matching in a THX installers training manual I have, I gave it a look over. What it says is this...

Timbre

The spectral character of a particular sound. Eg. the timbe of a violin is what distinguishes it from a cello when both instruments are playing the same note.

Timbre Match

A proprietary Lucasfilm process whereby a sound placed in the front speakers does not change in it's character when moved to the surround speakers.

So, this doesn't answer your question in a clear manner. Lucasfilm is referring to the Timbre Match process that's used in their THX post-processing done in THX certified processors.

What timbre matching means for your case is that you want your center channel to be comprised of the same drivers as your left & right speakers so that a sound pan across the three of them doesn't sound different on the center than it does on the mains.

Better yet would be to have a center channel that's exactly the same as your mains. And then to have everything else between L/C/R speaks the same as well (cabling, amps, etc.).

Dozer · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Dec 2004, 04:48 pm »

If the Polk R30 are such a deal (don't know the price) and if they're shielded, then you should simply just buy another pair, use one as a center channel, and put one in the closet. Then if you ever go to a rear=center, you have one. Just put one of your mains on top of your TV and see if it turns green.

5 identical speakers is the very best you can do - and there's nothing wrong with using a "main" as a center channel if it fits on the TV and is shielded.

Good luck.

sponger · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Dec 2004, 11:24 pm »

heh. The R30 is a floorstanding speaker. Unless I get a much bigger TV, it would be quite a balancing act.

But, thank you for the advice. All of the info so far has been extremely helpful. I did some further scouting and discovered the csi40 Polk center. Looks like it will do the job.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Dec 2004, 11:30 pm »

Sorry about that, didn't mean to throw you. What I mean by timbre matching is "voice matching," or using speakers that sound alike or very similar. Most companies that make HT speakers design their speakers to sound similar to other speakers in that model line. This should ensure (in theory) that buying a pair or towers and the "matching" center will result in a fairly seamless blend.

However, not all brands do a good job of this. Moreover, horizontally arrayed MTM center channels often will sound tonally different in the midrange than a tower version due to lobing. The very best voice match is to have 5 identical speakers, or at a minimum identical models for the front three.

You should be able to get a matching center from Polk, assuming the mains you mentioned are a current (or even recently discontinued) model. You may be able to create a speaker that matches, but the easiest and cheapest solution would be to just buy a Polk center channel.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Dec 2004, 11:41 pm »

Okay, I went back and reread that post in the HT circle. Depending upon what you plan to do, finding a match for the Yammie's is the way to go if you plan to keep them. It's nice to have 5 speakers that sound alike/very similar, but at a minimum you should make sure that the front 3 are alike. The Front Left, Front Right and Center must match or else sounds will tend to alter as they pan from right to left. An actor's voice may change as he moves from one speaker to another.

It's nice to have continuity from front to back, too, but our hearing isn't as good at perceiving sounds behind us, so it's not as critical to match the rears.

I don't know those speakers you have, I'm afraid. Are they current models? I think many here would advise that you may want to upgrade your speakers if you're able. If you can, you might want to look into buying all new ones. The ones you currently own could be used in another system, sold on Ebay, etc. You could search Ebay for a Center speaker to match the ones you have, but Yamaha isn't known for making great speakers (at least not now- they have some older ones that are legendary).

Let us know if you any questions at all. And welcome to AC.

sponger · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jan 2005, 10:06 am »

much appreciated, Rob.

turns out even the cheapest polk centers are well out of my budget right now.

but, i have an extra pair of Polk R15 bookshelf speakers sitting around. I was thinking of wiring them in series to 16 ohm, hooking them up to the center channel, and then adjusting their output through the receiver so that they catch up with the rest of the speakers.

any feedback appreciated.

thanks.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jan 2005, 05:44 pm »

Are the speakers video shielded? To check that, turn on the TV, and hold a speaker next to it - if the screen goes all green/odd, then check the intended placement of the speakers to be sure that the CRT is not affected by them. IF the screen remains normal with the speakers next to the TV, then you should be good.

As for wiring as a 16 or 4 ohm load, that will depend on your receiver - I might even try just one of the spare speakers, either right side up, or upside down, and see if that is good enough.

Good luck,

sponger · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 01:43 am »

yes, they are apparently shielded.

it seems that a majority of centers out there have dual woofer/ 1 tweeter set-up. So, I was thinking maybe I should disconnect one of the tweeters from the crossover so that the pair would amount to two 5 1/4" woofers and a single tweeter. Would it be worth it to go to that trouble?

thanks.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 02:00 am »

I picked up the R30's as well. Hey, hey, fellow fry's shopper?

They do seem to be a bargain for cheap HT. They sound just fine and dandy for the undemanding HT listener! Big sound in my big room. I mean no subwoofer needed big. The imaging is really diffuse. I can definitely live without a center channel. With the big beefy center channel concept, having the r30s as L and R satellites seems a bit lacking and/or redundant because the imaging isn't pinpoint at all, but fine for the undemanding HT user.

I haven't seen your initial thread about finding a center. Can someone link me to it? I'm wondering why you would pursue a center with the R30. I suppose the imaging could benefit somewhat with a competent budget center.

sponger · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 06:17 am »

without the center, i can barely hear the dialogue. If I switch it to 5 chann stereo, it's fine, but 5.1 surround creates a huge hole where the center channel should be.

I ordered the R30's from outpost.com for $59 each w/ free shipping. They were on sale at my local Fry's for $49 each, but they were sold out by the time I got there, which was 12 minutes after the doors opened. Outpost.com is affiliated with Fry's, btw. They sound just fine for my tastes.

I guess I'll just experiment with the other speaker tomorrow.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 06:22 am »

You need to tell your receiver that you don't have a channel OR use the mode that your receiver has that doesn't use discrete inputs, depending on how your receiver works. IMO, it's just fine without a center for fun casual HT. Maybe not if you're trying to impress your AUDIOPHILE friends.

Ah, you were 12 minutes too late, my friend. Actually, I got there before they opened, but no one knew where they were or how to get them so I think there were plenty at my fry's.

sponger · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 07:46 am »

...my audiophile friends being my left and right ears

j/k.

i'm just using my spare R15 as a center right now. It's working fine. I was just wondering if hooking up the other one would make a world of difference. The Yamaha HTR-5635 still holds many unexplored mysteries for me.

I was at the Fry's in San Diego. When I got there, there was a guy with his hand firmly attached to the display model and proudly claiming it as his. So, I paid $20 more over the web. I am completely satisfied. But, paying $20 less must make them sound that much better.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Jan 2005, 07:54 am »

Funny, at my fry's, I had to ask an ever so helpful, friendly, and efficient employee where the speakers were. She led me though a mob of people in line for lcds and tvs to the warehouse section where I just stood at the line and waited a minute or two for her to cart the speakers out to me. So they weren't anywhere near the floor and you had to ask an employee in the know to get them.

I think putting two speakers togethers as you are asking about would probably seriously affect the dispersion most likely in a negative way. However, some people have said that they like strange combinations like that so chalk it up to taste. MTMs already have that problem.