[albee]

All of my Tripath devices have sounded overly warm.  In fact, the Teac (unmodified) sounds the most neutral of them all but it's not without an "elevated temperature".   My system is not particularly warm itself.  Metal cone drivers, Mapleshade IC's and speaker wire and I'm beggining to wonder if the ac power may be effecting this?  

Has anyone noticed a difference in "warmth"  from ac to sla?

[Jon L]

I would rate the word "warm" along with words like "musicality" and "transparency."  Basically, one cannot know what the other person's referring to with these words.  

By "warm," do you mean mid-bass is too plump and muddies up the midrange?  Or that midrange is too voluptuous and/or dark.  Possibly you mean the treble transients are too slow, or image outlines too big and unfocused?

[TheChairGuy]

I can't characterize the Sonic Impact amp going or getting any 'warmer' on SLA vs. plugged into the wall (it has never been run thru the BPT gear for comparison).

The difference in the SI powered with the sealed lead acid battery was qualitatively much better than into the wall or with 8 AA batteries powering it.  I didn't hear warmth, I just heard a great overall improvement in the presentation...much better than I was prepared to hear in a $10 SLA battery; despite folks positive comments about it.

[albee]

I define warm as a more ripe, less clinical, sound that can seem thicker and slower than a more neutral amp.  The midrange is indeed plump seemingly borrowing from the bass registers.  I would characterize it as the sound of a less expensive EL34 amp.

[TheChairGuy]

albee,

I can only say I heard great improvement in resolution and lower noise floor...whether it changed character of had a warm character to begin with I probably am not qualified to say.

I'm not a tube fan, or at least haven't heard good enough tube gear to ever satisfy me thus far, so I wouldn't characterise the sound of the Sonic Impact with SLA as tubelike. It's something different, yet akin, I think. To my ears in most instances, better. I certainly couln't tell ya' if it was an EL34, 12ax7 KT88 or another type of tube 'sound' I hear  

The SI is about $60 with SLA from Battery Mart...it'll at least give you an impression of things on the cheap before plunging into more expensive offerings.

[Dmason]

The Tripath sonic is the constant, one's hearing, the variable. Therefore, it is possible that this sonic is not suitable for your hearing. I am a firm believer in the idea that nothing is for everone, just as nothing works for everyone. Despite people's sometimes strident opinions, there are NO absolutes in this madness.

There are so many variables at play here between the time soundwaves are propagated to the time and place they are processed in the auditory bulla that there are no absolutes. It may be that the Tripath sonic signature is perceived as "too warm" to your liking, by way of how the sound is processed, be that the speakers used, or auditory bullae installed at birth. I would caution against trying to ameliorate this by adding other components. If you are trying to make this topology work, I recommend auditioning speakers.

 I do not hear warm per se, and for the life of me, I do not hear tubes. What I hear is an unusually well balanced presentation. I hear smooth. Maybe that is warm.

[smargo]

Albee wrote:

I define warm as a more ripe, less clinical, sound that can seem thicker and slower than a more neutral amp. The midrange is indeed plump seemingly borrowing from the bass registers. I would characterize it as the sound of a less expensive EL34 amp.

It may be so with what your using,  but with the clari t, the sound is the antithesis of what you are talking about yet has a certain rightness that many an amp that has been thru my digs couldn't do. The transparency is to die for. It absolutely (again the vinni rossi amp) steamrolls a lot of el34's that i have heard. In other words this is true audiophile grade. You must hear this amp before you form any meaningful assertions about the the tripath chip

Regards and happy new year

smargo

[albee]

In addition to a Powerwave, SI, 2020 eval board, Blaupunkt 2150, and Teac, I also have a Decware Zen CS.  The CS is "fast" and a tad lean--just the opposite of the less expensive EL34 amps I've heard.  The Blau was by far the warmest sounding followed by the SI (2024).  

The Teac does sound close to tubey (EL34)--thick but quick.  It is a good alternative to tubes particularly if you sit around and listen for the tubes to degradate (like I do).   Amps should not require the care of a family member  so Tripaths and other chip, digital variations are welcome.  

[Dmason]

Actually, I find this to be an interesting example of just how differently people really do hear. Perception is personal. This is why eyewitnesses often report widely varying things. It is fascinating, because the "event" is the constant.

If I had to compare the Tripath sonic to tubes, it wouldn't be EL34 or Decware. Maybe PX-25, but I still dont make the connection. I would say that (IMHO) Vinnie's amp serves the music better than even my most expensive amps both tube and SS, used in the past.

 Albee, what speakers are you using? You mentioned metal drivers. I found Tripath to be really synergistic with metal drivers. Better speed, control, almost an organic sound, with well recorded material.

[ohenry]

I found the Powerwave to have the warmth of my tube equipment (read lush mid-bass/midrange), but provided more bass control similar to my SS gear.  I loved that part.  The negative for me was that the high frequencies sounded a little edgy or harsh at times in my system using Ed's horns.  OTOH, I never used the Powerwave enough to allow it to break in which may have attenuated that characteristic with time.  The accounts of break-in documented here by others have gotten my attention.

Hopefully, I've broken-in a TA 2020 that has languished for a year by routing radio through it to some old AR 5's at low levels over the past three weeks.  I want to have a glimpse of what you guys are talking about before spending more time modding it.

[albee]

Dmason, I'm using Klipsch Reference Series speakers.  So, you know they tend to be pretty quick sounding with the horn loaded titanium tweet and "cerametalic" woof.  The only real problem I've had with the Klipsch is using silver wire interconnects with tubes which gave a smear to certain ranges of the uppermidrange and treble.

I am think about playing with a small, full range driver setup and think the warmth I hear may actually be a benefit to a 4.5" cone.

[mcgsxr]

I can attest that the Teac sounds fantastic with the 4.5 inch full range drivers from CSS/DIY Cable - see my comments about these, in Kevin P's circle.

I just finished a set of these, and am VERY pleased with how they sound with the Bolder Teac.

More burn in to come, for another 400 hours or so, and then I will post details about the Teacs.

[mcgsxr]

pics added on this thread...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15559.msg135430#135430

[albee]

How do those 4.5's do on the topend?  I looked over the plots and it appears that they fall off around 14 or 15KHZ.  Do you feel like your missing anything significant?

[mcgsxr]

Well, the key word there is significant - in no way do I argue with the plots, there is some loss of extreme upper frequency information, versus my 2 way Totem Rokk's with metal dome tweeter.

On electronica, or other treble intensive music, there is a minor (to me) loss of sizzle, and extension to the uppermost end of the spectrum - this is what I meant in the other thread when I said that I know there are compromises present, but for me they are acceptable.

When I listen a/b I hear the difference.  When I just listen to music on the full range DIY speakers, I hear nothing missing - does that make sense?  Music is presented as a whole, and I am drawn in.

Do I dispute that there is some lack of treble at the extreme end?  Of course not.  Is it significant to these 34 year old ears?  No.

Not sure how that will translate to you, but for me it works like this - I will soon list those Totems, so that I can afford to buy 1 more driver, and build a center channel for my system.  I may even stretch, and buy 3 more, so that I can build a complete 5 channel system, so that my wife's HT needs are met with my audio needs.

I really like the combo of these drivers, and the Bolder Teac, fed by the Mensa, using M-80 IC and speaker cables.

I recommend these drivers to anyone seeking to wet their feet in the single driver world, since they are so easy to work with, and push a coherent, but full sound - no lack of bass, and to me, no lack of treble, in spite of the response curve.

That help?  I can list tunes, or you can suggest some, and I will report what I hear, if you are interested.

[JLM]

Mark,

Can you provide a link to those drivers?

Personally I'm a Fostex fan.  They offer many extended range drivers ranging from a 3 inch to 8 inch, with and without whizzer cones, efficiencies from 89 - 96 dB/w/m, and are reasonably priced.


Typical concerns regarding extended range drivers include:

No bass (most extended range drivers go as low as a small two-way, so if you need more add a sub like you would for the two-way, BTW my Bob Brines FTA-2000 speakers with Fostex F200A drivers do 25 - 20,000 Hz in room)

Lack of treble (with extended range drivers the highs are typically there, but they "beam" like a flashlight, this can be used to tune treble response, but most of what is usually "missing" is "air" or "sparkle")

Limited output (typically serious listening is done at around 80 dB by 30 somethings or older, so unless your listening in a gym or potentially damaging your ears with long term exposure to 85 dB or more, it shouldn't be an issue)


OTOH extended range drivers do many things better than multi-way drivers:

More coherent (no phase issues, no sound coming from two points, no sound coming from two different drivers or types of drivers, no distortion from a crossover)

Direct connection to the amp (acts as an "active" speaker as it has no crossover)

Better imaging (provides the single point source ideal)

More efficient (most are rated between 90 and 100 dB/w/m, there's no crossover to rob power, and many use high efficiency horn loading cabinet designs, opens the door to lower output amp designs)

Higher quality (money spent on two or more drivers plus crossover can be invested in a single driver, and since they're usually more efficient less is spent on the amp so more can be invested into the extended single driver)

[mcgsxr]

The WR125S can be purchased online from one of two sources, depending where you live.

US likely - www.diycable.com
Canada likely - www.creativesound.ca
International - well, I guess you have your choice!

The speakers that I built are 0.3 cubic foot bass reflex boxes, tuned to 55Hz.  Dead simple, zero Xover etc.  These drivers are paper coned, foam surround, solid copper phase plug, and a meaty cast basket - great little units, that work well in a simple box.

As JLM alludes to, I listen at sedate levels for the most part, but have pushed these harder than I ever will, just to test them - I still did not encounter bottoming out the drivers - but, I am using a 30wpc digital amp, so in the end, I am working exactly the power that these want.

IF you have a big boy SS amp or something, Kevin P warns me that you can damage the woofers through overdriving them, but he says that you would audibly be warned while doing so.  

In my 14x17 room, with 7 foot drop ceiling, and open wall (on one of the 17 sides) these guys make all the music that I need, across all the frequencies that I expect of my monitors - I do use subs, so the -3db point of 53Hz is fine with me.  I do not own an SPL meter, so I cannot comment on either my usual listening level, nor the "above average" level that I pushed these to.

Long story short, get an ear on SOME single driver speakers somewhere, to see if that level of coherency is something that you like - then you can research if it will be CSS, Fostex, Lowther, etc that you want to implement.