[mdogbucket]

Here are a few questions for experienced VMPS owners / listeners about amplifiers and electronics.   I know some of this has been addressed before, but I was hoping for up-to-date experiential information.  Answer any you feel like answering.  

What amp(s) are you using with your VMPS speakers?

Solid State?  Which ones?  How much Power?

Tubes?  Run off the 4 Ohm taps?  Enough Power?

Bi-amping?  With identical amplifiers?  

If not identical amplifiers, why not?  My experience with 1st order x-over speakers has been that they depend more having a high quality single amplifier or pair of identical amplifiers as well as virtually identical wire (top and bottom of bi-wire) for maximal coherence and continuity.  

If you can get away with anything here, is it because the larger VMPS speakers don't cross over to the woofers until under 200 Hz?

I noticed alot of VMPS users using amplifiers that are not as popular in the rest of high end audio (i.e. Ampzilla and pro amps like Crown).  Many seem to go for big power rather than outstanding quality or finesse.  I assume this is because those who appreciate the budget nature of the VMPS speakers, also seek out budget amplifiers?

Does this mean that the VMPS speakers (like the RM30, RM40, RM-X) are not the right choice for super high quality tube or solid state amplifiers in the 100 watt and below range?

The VMPS speakers have gained a reputation as being some of the most capable high-resolution speakers on the planet.  Even Peter Moncrieff loves them and he has some of the pickiest, most sensitive ears I know of.  Yet it sounds like the VMPS speakers work well with some more affordable amplifiers that might not be known for being the most transparent or refined.  My experience with very capable speakers has always been that they required excellent electronics to really shine.  No?

Is anyone using more traditional high end amplifiers (and other electronics) with their VMPS speakers (i.e. ARC, Krell, Levinson, CJ, Spectral, Rowland, Atma-sphere, Jadis, YBA, Classe, etc... )?

None of this is meant to offend in any way.  Just honest curiousity

[ted_b]

Currently I'm running the RM/X's full-range with a single Krell KSA-100 (17 yr old Class A amp).  Many think I'm crazy, and that the RM/X's demand biamplifying (and that may indeed be the case...i.e I'm missing a lot of their potential possibly) but so far they sound great.  I biwire using DH Labs t-14's, single run to treble, double run to bass.  I'm likely to upgrade my amp soon, but that's the situation currently.

Ted_B

[shokunin]

I think the VMPS speakers can match well to many amplfiiers that can deliver high current.  Here's a list of amps I have owned/used with the VMPS ribbons on either RM40's or my RM/x's

Pass Labs X-250
Krell FPB 300c
Theta Dreadnaught
Jeff Rowland M201 monoblocks
Cinepro 3k6SE III
Ampzilla 2000 Monoblocks
deHavilland Aries 845g's

My current configuration is bi-amping using the last two amps, Ampzilla monoblocks on the bass and deHavillands on the mids/treble.  I'm still working to get the two integrated as the Ampzilla has more gain than the deHavilland tube monoblocks.

Before the ampzillas arrived, I ran the Rm/x's full range off the 845 SET tube amps.   At 36 watts of SET power they powered the RM/x's just fine.  They could not handle SPL's at 100db or even close as the woofers sucked the juice out of my tube amps.  But my room is rather large and  open so it takes much more power to charge my room.

There's no reason why top-notch amplification 100w or below could not be used with VMPS speakers.  Now, I've not tried using a Tenor, or darTZeel, or Sierra Olympia amp on my speakers, but I don't feel the need to either.

[zybar]

Here are a few questions for experienced VMPS owners / listeners about amplifiers and electronics.   I know some of this has been addressed before, but I was hoping for up-to-date experiential information.  Answer any you feel like answering.  

What amp(s) are you using with your VMPS speakers?

Solid State?  Which ones?  How much Power?

Tubes?  Run off the 4 Ohm taps?  Enough Power?

Bi-amping?  With identical amplifiers?  

If not identical amplifiers, why not?  My experience with 1st order x- ...

I have used Rowland 201's (very good) and a McCormack DNA-500 (excellent) with the RM 40's.  I didn't get as good results with my old Kora Cosmos Reference Tube Mono Blocs.

VMPS speakers like lots of current and to a lesser extent lots of watts.

I have tried running my Crown K2 (use it on my pair of Larger subs) on the 40's and it wasn't  very refined and couldn't be used full range (IMHO).

I know others have used Pass, Ampzillas, Jadis, and Rowland to name a few.

As for why VMPS owners are not using the more traditional amps...I think the VMPS owner doesn't necessarily buy something based on name.  They use their ears and know that there are many choices out there that sound better and are cheaper than the big names.

George

[mcrespo71]

As for why VMPS owners are not using the more traditional amps...I think the VMPS owner doesn't necessarily buy something based on name. They use their ears and know that there are many choices out there that sound better and are cheaper than the big names.

To take this to it's utter extreme, go hear Frank's $900 which IMHO, is hands down the most realistic system I've ever heard, so if you have a prodigious amount of technical knowledge like Frank does, you can make incredible sound with very humble components.

[John Casler]

 I noticed alot of VMPS users using amplifiers that are not as popular in the rest of high end audio (i.e. Ampzilla and pro amps like Crown). Many seem to go for big power rather than outstanding quality or finesse. I assume this is because those who appreciate the budget nature of the VMPS speakers, also seek out budget amplifiers?

Does this mean that the VMPS speakers (like the RM30, RM40, RM-X) are not the right choice for super high quality tube or solid state amplifiers in the 100 watt and below range?

The VMPS speakers have gained a reputation as being some of the most capable high-resolution speakers on the planet. Even Peter Moncrieff loves them and he has some of the pickiest, most sensitive ears I know of. Yet it sounds like the VMPS speakers work well with some more affordable amplifiers that might not be known for being the most transparent or refined. My experience with very capable speakers has always been that they required excellent electronics to really shine. No?

...

I think you'll find that the variety of amps used with VMPS is maybe a little broader, than some "more finicky" speakers, but in the end what most owners care about is their sonic preferences.

We have Kevin who runs his RM40s full range with tubes, We have many who use multiple amps including tubes on top w/SS on the bottom.

VMPS are very definitive about what pulls their sleigh.  They will play the electrons they are thrown like the cards in a hand of 5 card stud.

I think some of the amps are rather "esoteric".  I mean the AMPzilla 2K is probably one of the few amps that can hang with some of the "really big Boys" (Didn't someone compare it to the Halcro not to long ago?)

But I think your assessment that because the VMPS speaker line offers a high perfromance to value ratio you will even see them run (and very happily so) by even big AudioVideo Receivers

What do they need?  They need the "bestest" and the "mostest".  That is the best performing and most powerful amp the owner can afford.

What speaker doesn't.

In general, low distortion, low noise and high amperage/power will make most people very happy.

But again you'll find tubes, SS, as well as some of the new "digital" type of amps being used and most of the owners love every watt.

Personally each day, (yes even after all these years) I find new adventures in High Perfromance Lstening with my VMPS.

Lately I have beeen playing with different pre-amps (and even NO Preamp) and found some really "new ground" to the search for "ultimate sound".

This preamp exploration has also shown me that the AMPzilla is alos one of the most incredible amps to use with the VMPS drive system.

No doubt other VMPS owners are making these explorations too, .... or they are totally happy enjoying what they have.

It may be as you suggest a "mindset" of the average VMPS owner.  That is a Value to Performance mindset that causes then to seek out a similar product for all their needs.

I know back in the days when I was more into Performace Autos, I picked up a couple Pantera's.  Then by adding about $3000 worth of engine and suspension parts had a machine that would blow the doors off any Ferrari or Lambo on the Continent.  So for $13K I saw the rest in the rear view mirror instead of the windsheild.

To this day, I'd rather have a "spiced up and played with" Viper than a "shiny red F40" or Lambo.

You may just have something here...

[meilankev]

mdogbucket,

I hope you are not expecting to find some kind of consensus among VMPS owners on this subject.  As John mentioned, I am one of the few to run RM40s full-range with tube monoblocks.  And unlike others on the board, I have found these amps consistently outperform the high-current, mega-buck SS amps I've pitted them against.

However, George owned the same amps (actually, he had the upgraded version), and as he stated above, he is happier without these tube amps driving his RM40s.  And George is someone on this board that absolutely has my respect.

How can this be???

Well, there are many factors to consider when determining one's satisfaction.  Certainly, upstream components play a role - note I play a CD about as often as I go to the dentist.     More important is the room itself.  Note my room is smallish (~1850 cu feet), and completely enclosed.  In a large and/or more open room, my tube amps may not be up to the task (of delivering enough oomph).  I don't know.

But the most important factor is simply personal preference.  As for myself, I wanted an ultra-dynamic system - some would say it borders on "agressive".  Perhaps those who found they prefer top-flight SS amps enjoy a more laid-back (civilized??) presentation than my system yields.  To me, there is no "better".  As I've stated numerous times before - my system doesn't sound like it does by chance.  It is absolutely tailored to suit my taste in audio playback.

I would expect all other VMPS owners are out to achieve the same result.

Good luck,
Kevin

[ctviggen]

I use a Jeff Rowland #10 (analog, no longer being made, sadly).  
Because I'd heard that the RM40s were very power hungry, I originally biamped my RM40s with the JR on the top end and channels of my 5-channel Bryston 9B SST on the bottom end.  However, I switched just to the JR and it sounds great.  (Actually, the absolute best improvement I've had to the system has not been the amp, DAC, etc., but room treatments -- I just purchased some Real Traps, and these have helped more than anything else I've purchased.)

[jimmyp58]

I use a Bryston 14B SST for my RM-40's, a Bryston 7B SST for my LRC, an Earthquake CineNova Grande 5 for my Ribbon Dipoles, a Crown K2 for one of my Larger subs and a QSC PLX-3402 for my other Larger sub.

Jim

[Bob Wilcox]

I think you could find a 100 watt amp marginal in driving the RM-40s full range although it could be adequate driving the ribbon mids and tweeters in a biamp situation. The RM-40s are pretty much a 4 ohm load. Output into 4 ohms among 100 watt amps spec'd to 8 ohms can vary.

With solid state, the main issue is the wide range covered by the mid range panels - 166hz to 7 or 10khz. Many solid state amps may have something not quite right in their character that is masked by speakers with crossover frequencies within this frequency range. This masking will not occur with the RM-40s and the truth might not be pretty.

[woodsyi]

mdogbucket,

I biamp (tri if count the subwoofer driven by Crown K2) with an active crossover, bypassing the 1st order crossover for the woofers on my RM40.  I am keeping  the passive crossover between the ribbons.  I am using Innersound ESL MKII for the woofers and ASL Hurricanes for the ribbons, both running off 4 ohms tap.  I love the sound of tubes on these ribbons doing vocals.  These are one of the very few speakers that can convey the magical moments in recordings of historical performances if the "moment" was captured in the recording.  But tubes, while necessary (personally) for voices, lack the dynamics to fully reproduce a Mahler or Beethoven symphony even in my smallish room.  Not only the woofers but the mid ribbons (going down to 200Hz) also require a lot of power for the peaks.  This is why I am actively biamping with tubes on top and ss on the bottom.  Regarding the tubes, SET tube amps would be fabulous for serenades and strings but not so good on marches and cannon blasts.  I use 200 w tube mono blocks for versatility.  My "X-mas" present  this year is the extreme upgrade on these amps by Bill at Response.  I am hoping that this will give these more SET sound for voices.

[rlcordeiro]

I run my RM-40's off a Bryston 4B-SST and in a year of hanging out with audiophiles I havent heard better resolution. The drawback however is that bad recordings are unlistenable. Nothing is perfect.

[MGDeWulf]

I have only experienced the RM40.  I have, however, had the opportunity to use any number of power amps with it.  Let me suggest two:

The Pass X250.  Better than the X350 with the RM40, the X250 has a wonderfully textured and natural presentation with up-front imaging that gives a real feel and intimacy with the original performance.

The Edge G6.  My fave for the RM40.  Dynamics and inner detailing that has to be heard to be belived.  Not as warm as the X250, but more naturally alive and tone perfect.  In a dark room, this combo will absolutely amaze like few others at any price.

Hope this helps,
Marty

[jgubman]

Marty,

any plans to try out the Ampzilla2000 or Son of Ampzilla2000 in the "Big Rig"? I've heard the Son on Brian's system a few times, and it seems pretty hard to beat...

[MGDeWulf]

Those are amps that I would love to try.  Maybe something can be workd out at CES next week.

Marty

[Dunedain]

We're using an Adcom GFA-5500 amp with our RM2's.  Music is detailed, warm, smooth and powerful with this amp.
And it can handle The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring on DVD at -6 Dolby Digital Reference Level volume
at 13 feet from the speakers no problem (which is thunderously loud), and yet the RM2's remain smooth as glass
even when playing at such high volume as this.  

[John B]

Those are amps that I would love to try. Maybe something can be workd out at CES next week.

If not,    http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1109621681

[buffer]

Amps used with VMPS
-------------------------
Lamm M1.1
Pass X350
Aleph 1.2
Hafler 9505
VAC Avatar(?)
Bear Labs
Plinius

I currently use the Pass X350 for the bass and the Lamm on the top.  I do this because I like the dynamics of the Pass X350 for bass.  The Pass has more pinpoint imaging on the mids than do the Lamms, but the Lamms open up another dimension making classical music sound that much more live.  The Lamm is also slightly richer sounding.  The speakers are 4 Ohm and I use my Lamms at 4Ohms (I think).

I would not use less than 100watts (if you like to play your music loud).  My experience is 100watts on the mids is pushing the minimum limit when playing loud rock (or audiophile tracks) with dynamic drums or full bodied vocals.

I find VMPS to be mercilessly revealing.  Using the right equipment makes all the difference in the world.  That said, the right equipment isn't always the most expensive.  Sometimes, it's more about matching the characteristics of the amp with the characteristics of the ribbon to get the sound you want.

[tdangelo]

I'm using Aragon Palladium 1K monos - they are class A up to 125 watts at 8 ohms.  They work very well with my RM40's.  I used them with an Acoustic Reality eAR2 before I blew it up.  The RM's work much better with the Aragons.

Tony