Art D/IO question...

Marbles · « **Reply #20 on:** 1 Jan 2003, 05:16 pm »

Quote from: Captain Humble

I keep seeing the terms ART DIO and smARt DIO bantered around but I can't find the term smART DIO at The BOLDER Cable Company's website. Is the smART DIO the term used after Wayne mods an ART DIO?
Thanks.

That was the term for a Bolder modded ART DIO. Wayne has some additional mods that are more expensive that currently are not on his website. This new upgrade is called a MENSA DIO.

I hope Wayne puts the prices of the Mensa upgrade on his website soon.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #21 on:** 1 Jan 2003, 05:21 pm »

The term smART was coined by one of my customers (sjd) to describe the ART DI/O after it has been modified by me.

The "sm" stands for super modified.

The MENSA upgrade is a work in progress.

Jay has a prototype to evaluate when he returns to HK next week.

Pricing will have to wait until late January, if then

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #22 on:** 1 Jan 2003, 08:01 pm »

Ha, ha! The funny thing is that I was confused about the name for the longest time, I only figured it out a couple months ago! When I saw the "Mensa" model, I almost fell off my chair! I love the way you've injected some wit and humor into a subject that can be a little dry.

TheTruth, I appreciate your comments, but by your standards my system would truly be mid-fi and underwhelming. I definately can't afford the UberGear you allude to; even the top VMPS is a little outta my range.

I certainly have considered/am considering the Bel Canto & Musical Fidelity upsampling units, too. I've heard some good things about the MSB Link III, modded & with upsampling card installed.

Down the road, what I'd really like is the Perpetual Tech combo, but again I can't really fit that in the budget for awhile.

For not I'm more interested in dabbling in some cheaper tweaks.

Hantra · « **Reply #23 on:** 1 Jan 2003, 08:06 pm »

Quote

Please let me know when you heard these DI/Os and who modded them.

Wayne:

You forgot that thetruth has been in the high-end audio business for "45 years", has designed many ultra high-end speaker systems, and likely some 1028/512 DAC's as well. His current project is a slab house that is gutted, and filled with transformers, and bipolar transistors with aluminum siding used for heatsinks. He says it will be "the ultimate amp".

ROTFLMAO. . .

On a more serious note, I would like to compare the Nixon tubed DAC that I am picking up tomorrow with a smART, or MENSA once they become available. I could even swap someone for a while. . .

I'm switching back to Type 2 today just to see what I am gaining with the Nitro.

L8r,

B

Tyson · « **Reply #24 on:** 1 Jan 2003, 11:05 pm »

Hmm, lets see here, 45 years in the high end audio business? Assuming he got in to it a 16 or so, that makes him over 60. Those are some old ears. Not sure I would trust them. . .

Yes, this is an ad hominem, but in principal it's not much different than ad verecundiam argument thetruth engages in above (most of his posts are in this manner. The particular appeal changes, either to his own supposed authority or the superiority of his gear). Either way, his arguments are of a destructive rather than constructive nature. Until he offers some specific examples/facts/experiences to back his arguments, his posts are worthless, as the say, literally, nothing.

Jay S · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 12:35 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

The MENSA upgrade is a work in progress.

Jay has a prototype to evaluate when he returns to HK next week.

Pricing will have to wait until late January, if then

I have no idea how Wayne manages to find the time for R&D, but he does a lot of it -- witness all the new cable products of his own design that he is coming out with, and the continual improvement to his mods to the DI/O. Participating in DAM shootout after shootout is part of this R&D process, and each is very time consuming.

He also listens to feedback from his customers. My wishlist for taking the smART to the next level was a bit more midrange and treble smoothness. Wayne has made a lot of changes to the MENSA (believe me, its not just a matter of changing 1-2 parts). I will take a long listen to the MENSA (now with a bybee'd power supply) as soon as I get back to Hong Kong.

Rob,

I really liked the MENSA name too! Truth tell, I had a good laugh as I found it quite witty. If Wayne can come up with further improvements, maybe EINSTEIN would be appropriate.

thetruth,

I will admit that I do not have an ultra high-end system. But I think that some people on AC have some very musical and revealing systems. I also would not be too quick to put down VMPS - the regular RM40 did win best at CES last year.

While I can't validate whether the smART will sound bloated on a "true" high end system, I can say that the smART has significantly tighter and deeper bass than my Cary 303/100, a $3k list cdp which has been praised for having excellent bass in professional reviews.

As for the silk purse out of a sow's ear point, I agree up to a point. Past experiments upgrading the parts quality of the $495/pair nOrh Le Amp monoblock amps convinced many that the more expensive Odyssey Stratos was still a better amp.

At the same time, I refuse to equate price with quality. Remember that national/international advertising, event marketing, and multi-layer brick & mortar distribution don't do a thing for quality (they are only about building awareness and getting the product to the end customer) -- but are VERY expensive; we've seen reports of a 6x markup on typical components in order to determine their retail price. These expensive activities are clearly not a substitute for passion for audio, diligence, technical ability, and a good ear.

I understand that people like Stan Warren have found many design flaws in expensive commercially available audio equipment. Given that you say that you have been in audio for years and have significant design experience under your belt, we would really appreciate your insights on what constitutes good design (lots of things to talk abou there) and on which components you particularly like.

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #26 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 12:43 am »

It's funny too to see reallllly expensive products chocked full of cheap, off the shelf parts. Rumor has it that many mfg'rs admit that they can't afford to spend much on the parts to speakers that cost more than my car!

Jay S · « **Reply #27 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 12:53 am »

Yes, I find that shocking too. I also think it can be very difficult to avoid with a traditional marketing/distribution approach. Hmm, put in 6 $20 capacitors, apply the 6x markup, and retail price jumps by $720!

This will be particularly true if there are numerous distribution intermediaries (e.g. manufacturer -> distributor -> brick & mortar firm -> individual retail branch) involved -- lots of overhead including transportation to cover!

This is where passion for audio comes in -- many manufacturers absorb much of the cost of the upgrade because they can't stand the idea of coming out with less than the best they can do. The accountants aren't happy, investors may not be happy, and even the family of the designer may not be happy.

This is also where a new business model comes in. Take VMPS as an example, its business model (e.g. very little print advertising, significant amount of direct to end customer sales, low inventory at the dealer / build to order) allows it to offer excellent parts (including mega expensive capacitors) at a reasonable price.

eico1 · « **Reply #28 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 04:51 am »

Jay, I don't know how new Brians business model is, hasn't he been doing it for over 20 years? I remember the old ads in back of the mags.
As far as the markup goes, i don't know if it is any less than the standard 6x you mention, there strengths and weaknesses to all marketing and manufacturing approaches.

steve

thetruth · « **Reply #29 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 05:54 am »

Rob

I'm just suggesting consideration of other DACS. You don't need an 'uber' system to hear the differences. As for the RM40s they are easily bested at 1/2 the price by a pair of Maggie 1.6's with a sub.

BTW both the Bel Canto and Musical Fidelity are excellent units.

Quote

Please let me know when you heard these DI/Os and who modded them

Wayne,

No offense, but they were modded by Bolder Cable.... Others on the HD and AC forums have stated to me privately that they hear the same effect. BUT they won't post that opinion. I guess I have a more effective flame suit....

Understand I think your mods do a good job giving smaller scale loudspeakers the illusion of a large soundstage. But on larger reference systems, the dimensioning of the soundstage isn't real.

Hantra,

Get a life..............

Tyson

Quote

Until he offers some specific examples/facts/experiences to back his arguments, his posts are worthless, as the say, literally, nothing.

Et tu brute!....

Jay S.

Quote

Given that you say that you have been in audio for years and have significant design experience under your belt, we would really appreciate your insights on what constitutes good design (lots of things to talk abou there) and on which components you particularly like.

The clique' mentality that dominated HD is now permates AC. Unless one feeds with the clique' one has no cedibility. LOL.....

As for me, I just call them as I hear them. My life doesn't demand consentual validation.

For those people discussing the mark up of high end audio equipment. The standard multiplier for loudspeakers is 9 times manfacturing cost. Electronics is typically 4 times cost.

Happy new year and see everyone at the WCES........

Cheers
TT

Tyson · « **Reply #30 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 06:21 am »

Et tu Brute implies a betrayal by a trusted friend. Not the case here unless I know you by a different moniker perhaps.

Also, you're wrong about the maggies. Heard em. They are not better than the 626R's, let alone the 40's. Probably has to do with their radiation patterns. I hate bipoles. Lot's of people love Maggies, just not my cup of tea.

doug s. · « **Reply #31 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 01:25 pm »

tyson, i'm w/you - i never cared fo *any* maggies. i could see how someone may complain about an over-blown soundstage w/'em - regardless of source.

and, i know the di/o is for real - i've had enuff experience w/it myself, in a couple of systems, compared to some spendy digital hardware, to know that the truth spoken by "the truth", is only the truth as he sees it... like a lot of audio stuff, i guess!

and, i know of too many folks not here or on hd, that also got rid of way-spendy stuff in favor of the di/o - >$20k digital gear - to know that the di/o is ok.

i agree that it isn't the only game in town, but unless ya got money to burn, it's a more-than-reasonable choice. now, i wouldn't mind hearing that new toobed dac scott nixon does...

doug s.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #32 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 02:47 pm »

Judging from the information he has dispenced, I believe thetruth is none other than ThomasW.

It is fairly well known he feels that very large bipole radiators, multi amped, create the sound he likes.

I do not care for that sort of sound myself.

Thomas, If you would care to get together after CES at Jason's, I would love to compare your Hawk DAC with the latest version of the modded ART. Mike Galusha, Tyson, Jason and whoever you feel has good ears is welcome to come along.

fredgarvin · « **Reply #33 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 05:06 pm »

Well it certainly is true that we all prefer our own type of sound and I would agree that Maggie lovers have issues with "the sound" that differs from the rest of us. Of course an artificial soundstage comes built in with Maggies. Those that love 'em love 'em. I would imagine that amplification offers unique problems as well? I know many planar owners prefer a warm Mcintosh type of amp.

cjr888 · « **Reply #34 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 05:26 pm »

Regarding the comment quoted below -- is this one person's opinion, or would other's agree with it as well about the modified DI/O?

Secondly, are you speaking of the dimensions of the soundstage, as in width/depth and spacing between performers, or are we speaking of specific image size?

Why do I ask? Frankly, when I've heard it, whether due to one component or a system, there's a lot I like in the effect.

Is it true? I don't really care. When have a system in a home, you're listening to a system and not performers. Embellishment is fine in my eyes as long as I like the effect...

>Understand I think your mods do a good job giving smaller scale >loudspeakers the illusion of a large soundstage. But on larger reference >systems, the dimensioning of the soundstage isn't real.

Tyson · « **Reply #35 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 05:54 pm »

I've been curious to hear Dennis' Apogee's since he finished damping his room. Perhaps my opinion will change on bipoles in a properly constructed/treated room. Till then I'll stick by my opinion that the Accustat's and Apogee's (the large, reference level speakers being referred to here) are awesomely transparent, but create imaging that, to me, sounds "larger than life". JMVHO of course.

Pez · « **Reply #36 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 06:03 pm »

Apparently I'm a neophyte wannabe audiophile.

thetruth seriously think about changing your moniker back to ThomasW. I liked you a lot better when you were a simple man and not the embodiment of egotism.

Then again if thetruth is not Thomas then tell us why you feel this way instead of burning down bridges you haven't even crossed yet.

Marbles · « **Reply #37 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 06:18 pm »

I don't mind someone having a difference of opinion if they have heard the products they comment on.

I'm sure that (assuming it is TW) Truth has in this case.

I often learn a lot more when people have a desenting opinion then when all are in agreement.

It seems a long time ago I tried to get you to post a review of your Hawk Dac.

Will you do that now? There is a review section at AC for this reason.

IIRC, the Hawk is about twice the $$$ what a smART is if it is pre built, but it is closer in price, but still more for the kit.

Edit: since Truth is not ThomasW, then this post is meaningless.......

Wayne1 · « **Reply #38 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 06:41 pm »

ThomasW heard a VERY EARLY version of my work on the mods for the ART DI/O over a year ago. He only listened to it for a very short time, one or two tracks, if my fading memory can be relied on.

Brian Cheney, who I don't think of as a neophyte audiophile, used one of my early modded ART DI/Os at CES last year when he won best of show. He didn't seem to think there were any problems with soundstage.

I repeat my offer to compare the latest version of the smART DI/O to your Hawk. You choose the place. I do ask that Tyson, Jason and Mike Galusha be invited along to offer their thoughts.

I would also like to do a follow up comparison in Tyson's or Jason's system to see how the DAC's stack up with gear that is "not state of the art".

audiojerry · « **Reply #39 on:** 2 Jan 2003, 06:46 pm »

I am glad that healthy debate and discussion are still alive, now that we've got audiocircle. Thanks again CREATORS. I'm sorry I don't have more time to spend at this forum.

Has anyone done a shootout between the Modwright Level 2 Perpetual Tech. P-3a and the latest smart DIO? I've got the P-3A, and Jackman has the DIO. We are gonna try to get together to do a comparison, but it would be interesting to find out what has been learned so far.