[zachary80]

Well I still have not decided what route I am going to go for a new source, but right now I am leaning toward the VDA-1/VAC-1 (DAC)combo, but I don't now how good any of my transports would be (probably not very good at all). How much do they affect the DAC?

[Marbles]

Zach, since you're in my hometown (staying warm I hope) you could come over and hear first hand how much difference they make.

[PhilNYC]

It probably depends a bit on how good the rest of your system is, but it certainly can make a very very signficant difference.  We just did a transport/digital source comparison at the NY Audio Rave...not super-critical, but differences were pretty obvious.  Check out comments dispersed throughout here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15366

You can also see futher comments about one of the transports we used here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=15419

[zachary80]

Thanks guys.

Marbles, YGPM (eventually)

[Adarsh]

Phil, which transport would you recommend? If I understand correctly, the transport is what moves the laser up and down plus the portion that is responsible for spinning the CD.

Thanks,

-A

[PhilNYC]

Phil, which transport would you recommend? If I understand correctly, the transport is what moves the laser up and down plus the portion that is responsible for spinning the CD.

Thanks,

-A

A - what's your budget?

The transport is what reads the data off the CD and sends it to the DAC to be converted into an audio signal.  So it is inclusive of the motor, the laser, and a variety of other parts.

[Mad DOg]

which transport would you recommend?

The Empirical Audio modded Sony DVP-S7700 is a wonderful transport. I believe this is what Phil uses. I've tried it and it is superior to my old Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro transport which was an excellent transport already.

The Sony SACD players (SCD-1 and 777ES that I've heard) also serve as great transports. The Esoteric stuff works pretty well as a transport.

[byteme]

which transport would you recommend?

The Empirical Audio modded Sony DVP-S7700 is a wonderful transport. I believe this is what Phil uses. I've tried it and it is superior to my old Audio Alchemy DDS-Pro transport which was an excellent transport already.

The Sony SACD players (SCD-1 and 777ES that I've heard) also serve as great transports. The Esoteric stuff works pretty well as a transport.

Ditto on the S7700 modded by EA.  I found a used 7700 for about $200 on a-gon and put off the mods because I couldn't understand why I'd spend $800 modding a $200 unit.  Well, the difference was quite noticable and very recommended.  I'm quite happy.  I'm using it with a Nixon Tubedac which I also love.  Prior to the Nixon I had the CIA stuff that you're looking at, and I much prefer the Nixon tubedac and it's power supply.  Great little buy!

[Adarsh]

WAIT! I guess this is really stretching it....

Some of you are talking about modifying Sony ES components. What are you thinking???

It's like buying a Lexus LS430 and then stripping the engine and putting something else;

Sony ES makes no compromise on sound quality - they way I see it you probably don't even notice the difference - its all in your head.

Why not enjoy the Sony ES for what it is?

[nickspicks]

One other way to look at this is to go with a cheap transport and then spend your money on jitter correction.
as in, a DIP box or even better, an apogee Big Ben.

with something like the BB in your digital chain, a great transport gets sort of "gray'd out".
YMMV , but this is what i've found with the listening tests i've performed.


If you can get one of the big sony tranpsorts, like the 777 , then you get the added benefit of excellent SACD performance as well as redbook AND great transport action should you have a DAC.
I've been looking at used Sony DVP-9000ES's for exactly that purpose.  SACD and superiour transport for redbook.  I hear the video rocks as well.

[PhilNYC]

Why not enjoy the Sony ES for what it is?

Because there's no comparison whatsoever between the stock S7700 and the S7700 modified by Empirical Audio...the modded S7700 is simply oustanding.  The differences are easily observed using an oscilliscope on the outputs from a stock vs. modded player, and the audible differences are clear as day (we've done more A/B comparisons between the modded and un-modded players than I care to count, and in every case it was very easy to identify which player was which).

[Mad DOg]

WAIT! I guess this is really stretching it....

Some of you are talking about modifying Sony ES components. What are you thinking???

if a Sony DVP-S7700 in stock form is good enough to satisfy you, that's great! you'll be able to save yourself lots of money and grief trying to attain the sound that will satisfy you.

It's like buying a Lexus LS430 and then stripping the engine and putting something else;

not exactly an accurate analogy...many of the modders aren't ripping out the innards when they go in to mod. they are simply stripping down the "fat" that detracts from sound quality and installing more "HP" to improve sound quality where they can.

what you're basically saying is that no one can make the LS430 a "better" car. not true. modders can make it faster by increasing the engine displacement, installing hotter camshafts, porting and polishing the head, tearing out all the smog management plumbing, allowing it to breath better by changing out the fuel delivery and air intake system as well as upgrading to a freer flowing exhaust.  

Sony ES makes no compromise on sound quality - they way I see it you probably don't even notice the difference - its all in your head.

have YOU compared a stock Sony ES player w/ anything else? many of the folks here have conducted a/b comparisons and speak from personal experience.

Why not enjoy the Sony ES for what it is?

if you can, then you'll save yourself alot of money!  

[Marbles]

While I have the Empirical modded S7700 and enjoy it greatly, another good Transport (by reputation, haven't heard it) is the CDM2Pro kit.

JoshK might still be willing to build you one.  Seems I remember something like kit = $699 or $799 and Josh's very cheap build cost of $100.

You could also buy something like the Pioneer Elite Universal DV-59AVi player.  You can get them without warranty for $860 delivered.  I have this player as well.

It's not as good as a transport as the EA modded S7700, but's it's still plenty good and the video is wonderful and the audio is pretty good.

[ctviggen]

I think the vast majority of audio gear is diminishing returns on the dollar.  While I'm thinking of buying the CDM2Pro kit, I'm really happy with my Pioneer Elite's transport capabilities.  Regardless, I know the CDM2Pro kit is better.   If you like what your transport does now, then don't listen to anything else.  As soon as you do, you'll be wanting more!

[byteme]

Some of you are talking about modifying Sony ES components. What are you thinking???

Sony ES makes no compromise on sound quality - they way I see it you probably don't even notice the difference - its all in your head.

Why not enjoy the Sony ES for what it is?

    No compromise sound quality, that's cute.  You've not heard the differences between the two have you?  Mad dog makes and excellent point.  In everything there are compromises for one reason or another.  You can EASILY take an LS430 and make it better.  Even in cases where a manuf. wrung 95% out of a car (ex. Honda S2000) there are still things you can do to make it either better to tweaked to what YOU want.  That fact that it is a mass produced item in and of itself makes it full of compromises.

For me, I'll take my EA modded 7700 anyday.

[JLM]

Adarsh,

Stock S7700 = stock Mercedes Benz sedan

Empirical Audio modded S7700 = AMG Mercedes Benz coupe

See?

In the case of the modded S7700 it approaches the very best available.  This is a rather unique example of modding due to the dual CD/DVD heads of the S7700.

Audio is a crazy hobby in terms of the money you can spend.  But its a garbage in, garbage out situation.  So you gotta get it right from the start or it'll never be right.  (This coming from a speaker guy.)

[JeffB]

This transport stuff always confuses me.  Does a cheap $40 computer CD-RW drive have any read errors ever.  I don't think so.  Maybe there are error correcting codes and retries that make this so, but to my knowledge I have never lost a single bit of data on a transfer.  Also, to my knowledge most car cd-players read ahead and buffer about 10 seconds of data.  This data is electronically clocked through eliminating jitter I assume.  This avoids skipping when going over hard bumps.  Many inexpensive car cd players employ this technology.  So why doesn't a $300 CD player do the same.  What am I a missing?  Have the prices of external transports come down.  Last I looked years ago they were in the thousands of dollar range.  I don't discount the fact that there are audible differences.  What I don't understand is why they cost so much and why separate units are needed.

[Jay S]

You have to listen to different transports.  

I tried a Pioneer Elite DV-47Ai for 300+ hours and it was blown away by my Cary 303 -- more refined high frequencies, deeper/tighter/more tuneful bass, a fuller more natural midrange, more expansive as well as more precise soundstaging and imaging and, generally, better musicality.  This was using a Bolder/ART Mensa DI/O as a dac and some good power conditioning.  

When I switched from the Cary to an old Toshiba dvd player, the music was harsh, disjointed and nearly unlistenable.  It was much improved after I dampened the entire transport mechanism with Blue Tak, added a set of isolation footers underneath and mass loaded the player from above with a solid wood chopping block (with Vibrapods in between).  

Perhaps someone who has a better understanding of the science can explain how these mechanical tweaks improve the quality of the data stream.  

You may also want to read up on jitter -- this is the term for timing errors that are present when data is read off a disc.  It is impossible to totally eliminate it.  And, to give you a sense of how small errors can have an impact on sound quality, jitter is measured in pico seconds.

[JeffB]

Hmmm.  I had assumed that jitter could be completely eliminated through buffering of the data and then clocking it through.  Although, I am unaware of any clocks that run fast enough to have error rates in the pico seconds.  However, there are only 22,000 samples per second on a CD.  That is one sample every 45 microseconds.  That is 45 million times longer than a pico second.  Wow, if we can hear the slew in a pico second that is truly incredible.

[dave_c]

There's also the matter of producing a clean waveform through the digital outputs.  Steve puts a lot of work into the digital transmitter to ensure that the proper waveform is being sent out.  Not all transports do that correctly so that even if they are reading, correcting and buffering the signal right, it may go to waste if its not being sent out they way its being read.