Star Wars - The Last Jedi

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 05:24 pm »

I’ve never understood all the fuss about Star Wars. The first two films didn’t quite pander to children as much as the third and and fourth. “The Empire Strikes Back” wasn’t a particularly bad film, but the subsequent two instalments were quite a step down, especially “Phantom Menace”. That one ensured I would never watch another. Life is too short and time too precious to wasted on such tripe.

Folsom · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 05:57 pm »

I'm having trouble following you Wind Chaser.

By Date:

1st movie: Starwars
2nd movie: Empire Strikes Back
3rd movie: Return of the Jedi
4th movie: The Phantom Menace
5th movie: Attack of the Clones
6th movie: Revenge of the Sith
7th movie: The Force Awakens
8th movie: Rogue One
9th movie: The Last Jedi

By Chronological Order: (of the destroyed Starwars universe)

Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
Episode 2: Attack of the Clones
Episode 3: Revenge of the Sith
Prologue: Rogue One
Episode 4: Starwars
Episode 5: Empire Strikes Back
Episode 6: Return of the Jedi
Episode 7: The Force Awakens aka black Homer Simpson in space w/ British girl.
Episode 8: The Last Jedi aka a muppet show of stupidity mixed in with Jedi stuff & massive plot holes.

WGH · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 06:41 pm »

As everyone should know by now - time is not linear in the Star Wars universe and massive plot holes with goofy, furry and cute creatures are everywhere.
Trying to figure out why some of my old friends did what they did also resulted in massive plot holes so it's not that unusual in both universes.

As long as I don't try to figure it out I have a real good time in both.

Folsom · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 06:56 pm »

Why wouldn't time be linear?

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 07:18 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 22 Jan 2018, 05:57 pm

I'm having trouble following you Wind Chaser.

My comments about the first four are in reference to release date.

Star Wars >> Empire Strikes Back >> Return of the Jedi >> The Phantom Menace.

Back in 1977 the original "Star Wars" was revolutionary, there had never been anything quite like it in terms of special effects. The story, acting and direction were nothing special, but it didn't matter. We were captivated by what we saw.

3 years after that with the novelty of the visual effects out of the way, as a sequel "The Empire Strikes Back" felt like a much more satisfying film. As I recall, apart from Yoda briefly acting out like an infant, there wasn't much in the way of overt pandering to little kids.

By comparison "Return of the Jedi" was a disappointment, largely on account of the teddy bears.

Then came "Phantom Menace" with Jar Jar Binks and a six year old hero.

Tyson · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 07:42 pm »

My question is - given the consistently unsophisticated nature of pretty much every Star Wars movie - why are people acting all butthurt when a new Star Wars movie comes out that is not sophisticated?

OzarkTom · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 08:13 pm »

I will enjoy any Star Wars as long as Jar Jar is not in any of them.

WGH · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 08:24 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 22 Jan 2018, 06:56 pm

Why wouldn't time be linear?

Because 4, 5, 6 was before 1, 2, 3.
But you knew that, soon there will be so many prequels and sequels that we'll need a spreadsheet to keep track.
When Star Wars starts time traveling like Star Trek we'll know the galaxy has jumped the shark.
But I'll see them all anyway.

Folsom · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Jan 2018, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 22 Jan 2018, 07:42 pm

My question is - given the consistently unsophisticated nature of pretty much every Star Wars movie - why are people acting all butthurt when a new Star Wars movie comes out that is not sophisticated?

Because people grew up and would like a more mature version, for one. And all facets of entertainment are more mature now in various ways since the industry has been able to do anything they want. Also sales don't historically line up with forcing immaturity - the opposite really, as kids idolize adults and tend to gravitate to characters that show a spectrum.

For two I don't think the originals were nearly as fucking stupid as Chewbacca and the nocturnal penguin things that roam about during the day... nor Yoda acting like a retarded muppet during the tree scene. When Yoda acted goofy in the original trilogy it was to test Luke Skywalker. He isn't naturally a buffoon at 900 years old. Plus he looked like shit as a CGI ghost.

Quote from: WGH on 22 Jan 2018, 08:24 pm

Because 4, 5, 6 was before 1, 2, 3.
But you knew that, soon there will be so many prequels and sequels that we'll need a spreadsheet to keep track.
When Star Wars starts time traveling like Star Trek we'll know the galaxy has jumped the shark.
But I'll see them all anyway.

456 was before 123 in our chronological order, not theirs. Why would we assume ours if theirs if they're in a galaxy far far away, a long time ago? I'm sensing curmudgeon attitude.

I feel like they've done a good job to make it clear when each film is, with the continuity.

Tyson · « **Reply #29 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 12:45 am »

Quote from: Folsom on 22 Jan 2018, 11:05 pm

Because people grew up and would like a more mature version, for one. And all facets of entertainment are more mature now in various ways since the industry has been able to do anything they want. Also sales don't historically line up with forcing immaturity - the opposite really, as kids idolize adults and tend to gravitate to characters that show a spectrum.

For two I don't think the originals were nearly as fucking stupid as Chewbacca and the nocturnal penguin things that roam about during the day... nor Yoda acting like a retarded muppet during the tree scene. When Yoda acted goofy in the original trilogy it was to test Luke Skywalker. He isn't naturally a buffoon at 900 years old. Plus he looked like shit as a CGI ghost.

I disagree with everything you wrote. I watched the OT again recently with my daughter and they are DEFINITELY not aimed at adults and they have tons of cringeworthy moments.

All your carping amounts to “Well I would have done it different!”. Yeah, so what. These are all just popcorn movies aimed at kids. To claim otherwise is to invest the movies with more than is actually there.

This reminds me of that stupid discussion on the Marvel movies about point-rating the various power levels of the different characters. Dear lord can we just stop with the “this movie didn’t follow my arbitrary rules so it SUX” mentality.

Folsom · « **Reply #30 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 01:24 am »

Ya but here's the thing. The money follows people that care. The more they appease, the greater the box office hit.

And did you watch the OT without the digital edits? Very different. Personally I would be ashamed to show my kid the digital edits... waiting for the day Disney releases the OOT.

Also continuity is challenging when you start really screwing with characters etc. That will become a bigger and bigger issue over time.

The biggest problem is the psychopaths on top, whom try to use tactics and tools from previous movies, in all movies they expect to be big bread winners. Many of the Marvel films follow that pattern where they are only very good between expectations. Sadly, Disney has started down the same path.

WGH · « **Reply #31 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 01:24 am »

Quote from: Folsom on 22 Jan 2018, 11:05 pm

456 was before 123 in our chronological order, not theirs.

OK, we beat that one to death, I'm bored.

Quote

Because people grew up and would like a more mature version, for one. And all facets of entertainment are more mature now in various ways since the industry has been able to do anything they want. Also sales don't historically line up with forcing immaturity - the opposite really, as kids idolize adults and tend to gravitate to characters that show a spectrum.

I did enough drugs that I'm never growing up.

I was 29 when Episode IV came out in 1977 and loved it. In 1977 there were 79,472,000 people in the US between 10 and 29.
In 2017 the US estimated population between 10 and 29 is 85,405,385.
The 2017 US estimated population for people between 65 and 85 is 40,267,984, these are the people who saw IV, V, VI in the theaters and according to you want a more mature version (more T&A?).

I'm not even counting world wide audiences here but if I were making family movies I would go for the 85,000,000+ in the 10-29 group, the average Star Wars ticket buyer is a 34 year old male.
And I really want a Porg.

Folsom · « **Reply #32 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 01:32 am »

I wasnt even born when it came out. The point being is nearly everyone watched Star Wars when youngish, then nothing came out for many years. Recently it became more normal for kids not to know the OT, for kids approaching the Igen generation birth date and after.

And is there something wrong with people not wanting to trash all their childhood memories? That hasnt been an issue for everyone predating media that is being remade, so I dont exactly see how it is fair for them to criticize the rest of us.

Tyson · « **Reply #33 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 03:03 am »

Quote from: Folsom on 23 Jan 2018, 01:24 am

Ya but here's the thing. The money follows people that care. The more they appease, the greater the box office hit.

And did you watch the OT without the digital edits? Very different. Personally I would be ashamed to show my kid the digital edits... waiting for the day Disney releases the OOT.

Also continuity is challenging when you start really screwing with characters etc. That will become a bigger and bigger issue over time.

The biggest problem is the psychopaths on top, whom try to use tactics and tools from previous movies, in all movies they expect to be big bread winners. Many of the Marvel films follow that pattern where they are only very good between expectations. Sadly, Disney has started down the same path.

If you want scifi with depth, then you watch something like Primer, Children of Men, Under the Skin, Ex Machina, Arrival or Bladerunner 2049 (the last 2 from the same director, interestingly enough). And historically there's been a ton of great, thought provoking scifi movies (2001, Solaris, original Blade Runner, etc...), but Star Wars is not among them. Star Wars is just a variation of wish fulfillment fantasy pop culture like every super hero movie ever or any movie with a 'badass' main character. It'll all equally meaningless.

Not saying these types of facile movies are not enjoyable, many of them are TONS of fun. But judging them against the standards of serious works of art is misguided at best. Star Wars, Mad Max, John Wick, Lone Wolf & Cub, Indiana Jones, Star Trek, Marvel - all of them are exceedingly will made and they are all a lot of fun. But works of depth they certainly are not.

Rather than gripe about popcorn flicks not living up to your standards, why not spend more time watch other movies with actual depth. In fact, I've created a thread, stickied on this forum, about some of the great movies of all time according to various different sources. Clearly you want something more than what movies like Star Wars are delivering. Maybe you're just looking in the wrong place.

Folsom · « **Reply #34 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 06:17 am »

I like many other movies you do, too. But I don't put constraints on the types of movies that can be good. If it's good, it's good. If it's bad I'll say why.

Besides. Rogue One. Pretty darn good, and they didn't have to go muppet on it. For me it's closer to watching The Expanse, which is an amazing series. SciFi is fabulous when it can be serious and badass. If I have a blast watching it, why deny it? I just don't follow your line of thinking. It's not like I rewrite scripts. And if no one ever says what they like or don't, movie makers will be seriously challenged with trying to decide what movies they should fund. And there is just only so much money & talent to go around, so every time they spend a few years making a turd... it's a waste.

wushuliu · « **Reply #35 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 02:03 pm »

Quote from: Tyson on 23 Jan 2018, 12:45 am

I disagree with everything you wrote. I watched the OT again recently with my daughter and they are DEFINITELY not aimed at adults and they have tons of cringeworthy moments.

All your carping amounts to “Well I would have done it different!”. Yeah, so what. These are all just popcorn movies aimed at kids. To claim otherwise is to invest the movies with more than is actually there.

This reminds me of that stupid discussion on the Marvel movies about point-rating the various power levels of the different characters. Dear lord can we just stop with the “this movie didn’t follow my arbitrary rules so it SUX” mentality.

Yes, the OT special edition or not, were for kids. New Hope has horrendous dialogue. But the effects and mythic structure is what won us over.

Tyson · « **Reply #36 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 04:20 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 23 Jan 2018, 06:17 am

I like many other movies you do, too. But I don't put constraints on the types of movies that can be good. If it's good, it's good. If it's bad I'll say why.

Besides. Rogue One. Pretty darn good, and they didn't have to go muppet on it. For me it's closer to watching The Expanse, which is an amazing series. SciFi is fabulous when it can be serious and badass. If I have a blast watching it, why deny it? I just don't follow your line of thinking. It's not like I rewrite scripts. And if no one ever says what they like or don't, movie makers will be seriously challenged with trying to decide what movies they should fund. And there is just only so much money & talent to go around, so every time they spend a few years making a turd... it's a waste.

Right, you have your rules that a movie is good if it meets those rules and bad if it doesn't. Seems like IV, V, and Rogue One meet those rules and the others don't and that is upsetting to you.

Meanwhile, I on the other hand, don't impose those rules on these types of movies and I actually enjoyed all of the SW movies.

I ask you - what is a better way to live? The way that allows you to enjoy more movies? Or the way that prevents you from enjoying those movies?

You seem to want to find emotional resonance and satisfaction from Star Wars, and I don't. So when one of movies, by chance, happens to resonate with you, you hold it up as a beacon and then use it to thrash all the other movies because they don't 'measure up'. Me, on the other hand, I don't expect much emotional resonance from them. And if one of them doesn't resonate with me, I don't complain that the movie "ruined my childhood memories". Holy cow!

Also, you seem to forget that SW is aimed at kids, and judging by my daughter, it's doing a great job of that right now. She's seen ALL of the Star Wars movies at this point. Her favorite is.... The Last Jedi. So even though TLJ didn't resonate with you, it DID resonate with the person it was supposed to, people like my 11 year old daughter.

Which brings me to my broader point - these movies don't resonate with you as an adult because you are an adult. If you want emotional resonance, look elsewhere. Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for heartache and disappointment.

wushuliu · « **Reply #37 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 04:30 pm »

Folsom - Star Wars was not and is not Sci-Fi. It was always a mythic mashup of Joseph Campbell and the cheesy movie serials Lucas and Spielberg grew up on - Spielberg chose the jungle adventure serial route and made Indiana Jones, Lucas went the outer space route and made Star Wars. Star Wars was always about kids and merchandising. Always.

As far as 'cinematic' value, Empire is the one that makes the others better than they really are. It is a true masterpiece of story structure. It is the true 'mature' film of the bunch - and George saw to it that never happened again since it's the one over which he had least control! Take the essential plot structure of Empire and copy it into any genre and you will always get a great story.

Anyhoos, whatever. Stars gonna Wars.

Tyson · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 05:21 pm »

wushuliu - perfectly stated.

fredgarvin · « **Reply #39 on:** 23 Jan 2018, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: groovybassist on 21 Jan 2018, 03:11 pm

I’m among the group that didn’t like it at all. I felt the entire movie was aimed at merchandising to kids, the plot was predictable and acting was awful.

I long for someone to make a serious, adult, thoughtful Star Wars movie that isn’t entirely a CG extravaganza. I guess this puts me out of touch with the current reality of Star Wars. As far as I’m concerned, TLJ could have been made without any actual humans acting in it and come out the same. Maybe I’m just an old codger!