Subversive DIY Speaker Cable

Audio Al · « **Reply #80 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 05:18 pm »

nathanm
You asked to kill this discussion back on page 3!

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #81 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 05:42 pm »

Is that THHN the one that's spec'ed for underground burial?

Audio Al;

This is NON-VOODOO territory. You can always post in Audiogon...

nathanm · « **Reply #82 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 05:45 pm »

You're right Al, I did; but it was tongue-in-cheek. What could be more fun than a cable discussion? I'm loving every minute of it!

theborg · « **Reply #83 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 06:22 pm »

Administrator here...

Quote from: Psychicanimal

AudioCircle >>>>> the official non-Voodoo site!

I'm afraid not. AudioCircle is officially what the FAQ says it is, not what you say it is:

Quote

This site is a place for audiophiles to share experiences and knowledge with each other about their hobby in a friendly and helpful atmosphere. The name of the site invokes the well-known phrase "circle of friends." You should treat other people on the site as though they were your friends.

Quote from: Audio Al

Where's the administrator when you need him? Send this to the Intergalactic Wastebin!

There's no action to be taken here. Again, please refer to the FAQ.

Sincerely,

Borg

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #84 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 06:54 pm »

Quote from: theborg

Administrator here...

Quote from: Psychicanimal
AudioCircle >>>>> the official non-Voodoo site!

I'm afraid not. AudioCircle is officially what the FAQ says it is, not what you say it is:

Quote
This site is a place for audiophiles to share experiences and knowledge with each other about their hobby in a friendly and helpful atmosphere. The name of the site invokes the well-known phrase "circle of friends." You should treat other people on the site as though they were your friends.

Sincerely,

Borg

Voodoo is not knowledge --is misinformation--it is definitely an experience that usually gets out of hand, though...

Audio Al · « **Reply #85 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 08:15 pm »

Borg,
My request for your intervention was not a serious one. I would never want to incur the wrath of theborg!

I wanted to point out that most of the comments in this thread don't have much to do about the original post. It has turned into a general cable discussion that will never end. Maybe there should be a cable circle

If the purpose of Dan's post was to say that 12awg zip is as good as most of the cable out there than I suggest he take a challenge. Send a loaner set out to Tyson, Jason & crew in CO. Those guys do some very good comparisons and articulate their findings very well. They also have a variety of nice components to test on. And if you wish to take this challenge Dan, why not also send a set of those $50 Belden ICs that you sell on your site and claim are as good as ICs costing 6-10x the price!

Will you step up to the plate? I would like to read the results of another cable shootout.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #86 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 08:47 pm »

Al: The article is named DIY Speaker cable. It's not for me to send out speaker cable: it's for people to understand how to do this for themselves.
No more and no less. People will make their own judgements, as they are supposed to.

Ferdi · « **Reply #87 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 11:31 pm »

I would like to add something from a slightly different perspective: I enjoy making signal and powercables for my system and have so far tried the following:
- Speakercable based on 6 lengths of CAT5 cable braided (24 pairs)
- Interconnects based on various types of wire, including THHN, microphone wire
- Braided powercords made from THHN wire
- Shielded powercords made from shielded 2.5mm^2 cable.

By making my own, I am able to listen to a wide variety of different cables for little money. The end result is that I have kept my DIY powercables but use Groneberg signal- and speakercables exclusively and happy with them.

I have to agree with Dan: show others how it is done and let them try.

randytsuch · « **Reply #88 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 11:41 pm »

Hi Ferdi,
So you gave up on the Stan Warren recipe THHN IC's?
I am still using mine, but it really does make a difference if you dry ice them, and I don't think you were ever able to do that.

Randy

Marbles · « **Reply #89 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 12:11 am »

I just bought some 6 ga thhn so I could try it myself!

DVV · « **Reply #90 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 12:35 am »

Why is it that every time somebody says something along the general lines that a relatively ordinary product, aided by some personal work and experience, can run an honest race with some highly touted and immorally expensive (but nicely packaged!) similar products, that person gets flamed?

Why do people, at the outset of 21st century, still insist on believing in black magic, voodoo, witchcraft, all of which are used to produce wonder products?

Like I said, Dan, you have to watch it, you live way too near Salem.

You DARED touch the untouchable, human vanity. You dared claim your cable can do what quite a few companies charge hundreds, even thousands of dollars for. Have you any idea how this makes people who paid the price feel? Will they try it? No way! God forbid they should discover that you are more or less right, because it makes them suckers.

All of which is not to say that there aren't some really serious people making some serious cables, even if they are expensive. But even so, it begs the question - is the difference in sound quality worth the difference in price?

And except for some of Francisco's comments, and one or two others, nobody even saw the point.

Cheers,
DVV

Marbles · « **Reply #91 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 12:51 am »

Quote from: DVV

Why is it that every time somebody says something along the general lines that a relatively ordinary product, aided by some personal work and experience, can run an honest race with some highly touted and immorally expensive (but nicely packaged!) similar products, that person gets flamed?

Why do people, at the outset of 21st century, still insist on believing in black magic, voodoo, witchcraft, all of which are used to produce wonder products?

Like I said, Dan, you have to watch it, you live way too near Salem.

You DARED touch the untouchable, human vanity. You dared claim your cable can do what quite a few companies charge hundreds, even thousands of dollars for. Have you any idea how this makes people who paid the price feel? Will they try it? No way! God forbid they should discover that you are more or less right, because it makes them suckers.

All of which is not to say that there aren't some really serious people making some serious cables, even if they are expensive. But even so, it begs the question - is the difference in sound quality worth the difference in price?

And except for some of Francisco's comments, and one or two others, nobody even saw the point.

Cheers,
DVV

Dejan,

Most of us have tried the product or currently use it that was mentioned at the outset. I currently use it, but not for my fronts in my ref system. There IS much better out there for me and my system and bank account.

Only others can determine if the difference is worth it.

There have been other speaker cable products designed by Jon Risch or Chris VH using Cat5 or Beldon that have been highly regarded, and one Stan Warren receipe using MTW THHN wire that got a lot of press.

I still don't see the point of why he titled the post the way he did, then went off on his acoustic treatment tangent. Seems he should have started with the room treatment to begin with unless he was going for the controversial aspect........

What Voodoo are you guys refering too in speaker cables? None of the speaker cable makers on AC are in this group...if so please point them out.

I beleive Dan is on record as saying that speaker wire "sounds" different.
If so it makes sense that some might prefer the 12 ga zip, while others might prefer something different.

The cost of the difference is up to each individual.

If he is saying that the 12 ga is the best for every person and every system then he would be wrong.

DVV · « **Reply #92 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 01:06 am »

Quote from: Marbles

...

If he is saying that the 12 ga is the best for every person and every system then he would be wrong.

Ah Marbles, I see you're back from your visit to a house of ill repute.

I agree Dan may have phrased it a little awkwardly, because as I see it, we're still trying to determine exactly what it was he wanted to say.

But I took it that he wanted to point out that a home made cable like he proposed could give quite a few much more expensive cables a fair run for their money. No more, no less.

Just for the record, I am using van den Hul's 352 Hybrid cable myself, which I think states nicely what I think of the subject, and the good Lord knows, I've tried many a home brew designs myself.

The best sound I got out of any cable was the one time I played around with a test amp which had the cable included in its feedback loop. This means I was listening to practically speaking no cable as such. If you now ask me why I stopped experimenting with that, I'd have to say I honestly don't know. Maybe I should go back and try again.

Not that it's a new idea, or anything; heck, Kenwood had it in mid-70ies and called it "Sigma drive".

Cheers,
DVV

Marbles · « **Reply #93 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 01:22 am »

Well now that is cool and interesting ...um just make sure you have a good ground..............

And for the record I don't visit "working girls"

Marbles don't pay chicas.....they pay him

JohnR · « **Reply #94 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 01:55 am »

Quote from: DVV

But I took it that he wanted to point out that a home made cable like he proposed could give quite a few much more expensive cables a fair run for their money. No more, no less.

Just for the record, I am using van den Hul's 352 Hybrid cable myself, which I think states nicely what I think of the subject, and the good Lord knows, I've tried many a home brew designs myself.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that the vdH is much better than this 12ga cable?

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #95 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 02:23 am »

While everyone is guessing my motives here, please let me explain.
This article was deliberately designed for the novice on how to prepare a speaker cable. I started this thread to make people aware of it and to see if anyone was willing to experiment on their own. Apparently some did, and some did not. I am glad for the people who did, whatever cable they decided to use. I am generally glad to see people experiment, and make their own decisions.
Being the old fart that I am, I remember the old days when folks never even thought of having someone make speaker cable for them, they did it themselves, and if some of that has come back to this forum, I'm a happy camper.
As far as the diversion of off into room treatment; I will say this. If you have a loudspeaker room issue, address the direct causes of the problem.
As we are starting to see on this forum; the classic live end/dead end is starting to be implemented by a few people. This addresses the problem, and please note the satisfaction of the people who are implementing LEDE. Addressing the problem by the use of cable, only temporarily masks the problem, and generally leads to constant dissatisfaction from users. This is not a condemnation of "high end " speaker cable. This is a forum for audiophiles and music lovers to help each other get the most out of their systems, with the biggest bang for the buck.
For the past ten years I have watched high end concentrate on minutae, and sidetrack the most basic principles of setting up a pair of loudspeakers in a room. My presence on this forum will hopefully remind people of some of those basics.

audiojerry · « **Reply #96 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 06:18 am »

Marbles said:

Quote

The cost of the difference is up to each individual.

If he is saying that the 12 ga is the best for every person and every system then he would be wrong.

Great points, Marbles, all of them. I have been trying to evoke a reply from Dan to that question myself. Either I'm a crappy communicator, or Dan is evading an answer. But, shame on you for telling Dan he is wrong. Dan has many more years of experience, and, as such you have no right to question him. Just accept his word as gospel.

Dan, do you contend that good quality 12 awg or maybe 6 awg, or maybe shielded Belden at most, is all anyone should use?

If so, is it because you believe any speaker cable design that employs other techniques is bogus, and anyone who succumbs to these designs is an idiot?

If so, Dejan, join us idiots.

DVV · « **Reply #97 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 08:03 am »

Quote from: Marbles

Well now that is cool and interesting ...um just make sure you have a good ground..............

And for the record I don't visit "working girls"

Marbles don't pay chicas.....they pay him

Mil bombas! How could I forget such an obvious fact? A thousand pardons, Marbles.

Cheers,
DVV

DVV · « **Reply #98 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 08:09 am »

Quote from: JohnR

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying that the vdH is much better than this 12ga cable?

Why John, I would have thought it quite clear as to what I said. I said I was using van den Hul's 352 Hybrid cable, and that's ALL I said. I compared it to no other, I made no reference at all as to its merits or demerits, made no comment on its insulation or skin effect, passed no judgement on its electrical qualities, etc.

That's it.

Cheers,
DVV

Ferdi · « **Reply #99 on:** 15 Mar 2003, 08:18 am »

Off to catch some

and the discussion gets longer and longer...

In response to Randy's question: I have move the SW recipe IC to my second system where they work very well. I was happy with them in my main system as well but feel the Groneberg cables are a bit more full/rich sounding, maybe at the expense of a little detail but if so, not much.

Not saying that one is necessarily better than the other. This is what I enjoy now. May change the next time I warm up my iron. Probably not today, the weather is too nice.