Subversive DIY Speaker Cable

DVV · « **Reply #60 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 04:47 pm »

Quote from: nathanm

Where are the blind audiophiles that's what I wanna know. If anyone should have superior hearing it should be them. We should have a double blind test, no seriously - using actual blind people! Heh!

Yeah, and if they could be constipated as well, that would be something. Though such people tend to get rickety.

Me, I'd like to see Steven Segal evaluate some systems.

Then, what about the special forces people? They are trained to the max, and that surely includes their hearing.

Cheers,
DVV

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #61 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 05:11 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast

Is there a difference or is it that you or I can not hear the difference? If you can't hear the difference the get the cool looking ones

If I'm the only one who cannot hear a difference, then it's me. But if others cannot hear the difference as well, while it's still likely that we're all half deaf, the chances that there is actually no difference increases quite a bit. In regard to the kilobuck cable comparison, I was not the only one who didn't hear a difference.

I'm NOT saying that ALL kilobuck cables are like that.

Also, I'm NOT in the camp that says that there is no difference in cables. When I entered this hobby, I was very (make that extremely) skeptical. But I've heard enough differences in speaker cables, ICs, and even power cords to believe otherwise. Like many here, I'm looking for the best bang for the bucks. And that doesn't necessarily looking at the most expensive or exotic looking cables. Likewise, I think people shouldn't dismiss a cable just because it can be put together with inexpensive parts from a hardware store.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #62 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 05:13 pm »

Quote from: Carlman

I can't believe the amount of hype power cords get. Count me in as a 'non believer' when it comes to the claims of what happens with new power cords... I mean, it makes a nice improvement but, wow.. the claims that have been made with power cords! such as 'new PC's make more of a difference than a new component'... And it's about all types of cords for that matter. It's one of the reasons I've stopped going to Audio Asylum... too many cable nazi's. When I was looking for an amp, someone emailed and suggested I upgrade my interconnects and power cord. In the end, replacing the amp made a huge difference... because all that other stuff just makes the component as good as that component can get.

Oh, power cords work to a certain degree if you don't have good power conditioning and/or are fond of artificially enhanced soundstage and bass. I had a friend who loaned me a $400 BMI Whale eand I told him my $40 Absolute sounded better. He had tried the Absolute in his rig (with a Balanced power transformer as filtration for the whole 5 Watt SET based rig). He came over this weekend and brought a BMI Shark ($650). We compared it to a Jena Labs cryo'ed Absolute. The Shark left toothless. I have some serious power delivery/noise control and isolation measures.

audiojerry · « **Reply #63 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 05:52 pm »

Just to make sure I haven't been misunderstood, I'd like to elaborate on a few ponts..

I do not believe that as the price goes up, correspondingly, so does performance.

I do believe that as the price goes up, performance can increase, but at a diminishing rate. Performance can also decrease as the price goes up.

I do believe that a well designed speaker cable will provide better performance than 12 or 6 gauge stranded copper, or zip cord. I can't comment on the Belden 8718 wire that Dan recommends because I've never used it.

Is it justifiable for a cable designer to charge hundreds or even thousands of dollars for a few feet of speaker wire? I believe that is up to the consumer, but the impression I have gotten from this thread, which was inititiated by Dan, is that he wanted to advise readers that spending one's hard earned dollars for anything more than 12 awg or Belden 8718 is the equivalent of throwing one's money down the drain.

Sorry, but I don't abide by that contention. My experience tells me that you can do better. It's easy for anyone to find out for themselves. There are at least three cable designers belonging to this forum, and all offer full return priveleges. Rather than being a skeptic and accepting someone else's truth, even when they speak from years of experience, I think it would make more sense to prove it to yourself.

I'd like to hear from the cable designers themselves who belong to this forum, and ask that they offer some arguments to support what they do. I am not targeting Emperical Audio, but I just visited its website, and I found it impressive in the way it attempted to present a valid rationale for its designs. It offers reference level speaker cable for as much as $3619.98 for a 15' biwire pair. Is this overpricing? Is this snake oil? Again, I believe the consumer needs to make that decision for himself, but Emperical offers a 45 day return policy, I believe. In the old days, snake oil peddlers came into town, sold there wares, and were gone by sunset. I don't think you will find that to be the case with the cable designers here on Audio Circle.

Finally, if you have limited funds to spend on audio, maybe speaker wire beyond 12 awg should be the last place you allocate that money to.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #64 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 06:58 pm »

Quote from: audiojerry

I do believe that a well designed speaker cable will provide better performance than 12 or 6 gauge stranded copper, or zip cord.

My experience has told me that certain types of materials (silver, copper, etc) have certain sound characteristics. (It's a generalization since I had not listen to all cables out there)

If someone likes the silver sound (all else being equal), it's impossible to convince that person that copper cable is better, and vice versa. So, I'd like to compare copper to copper, etc. I was sorely disappointed when I last tried it.

Having said all that, I'll willing give it another shot. audiojerry, do you have a recommendation on a "well designed" copper speaker cable? I want one that you think will beat the 12 or 6 gauge cables. Preferrably, I want to get it from a place that offers a trial period with no-question full money back guarantee. I'll put it up against my 6-gauge Lowe's speaker wires. Just for grin, I'll budget ~$300 for it. The less the better, of course. Just keep in mind that my 6-gauge wires cost $30 for a 10-foot pair.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #65 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 07:11 pm »

Ahh, come to think of it. Forget the all-copper cable requirement. How about just a well designed cable?

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #66 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 07:12 pm »

Quote from: Xi-Trum

Having said all that, I'll willing give it another shot. audiojerry, do you have a recommendation on a "well designed" copper speaker cable? I want one that you think will beat the 12 or 6 gauge cables. Preferrably, I want to get it from a place that offers a trial period with no-question full money back guarantee. I'll put it up against my 6-gauge Lowe's speaker wires. Just for grin, I'll budget ~$300 for it. The less the better, of course. Just keep in mind that my 6-gauge wires cost $30 for a 10-foot pair.

If I were you I'd send the cable you are using to cryogenic treatment ($9/lb @ Cryogenics International) and then do the A/B comparison. Some of these *esoteric* speaker wires just have some good jacketing to absorb vibrations and the wire is cryo treated. That's one of the reasons my $40 Absolute smoked the $650 Shark...

I think if you like copper wire then Audience, Jena Labs, Nordost are the cables to beat. I'd make sure my own homebrew is cryo treated and properly burned in before the match.

BTW, where's Audioengr?

He hasn't answered Nathan's question...

JohnR · « **Reply #67 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 07:27 pm »

Nathan's "question" is not a question, it's a dig. The construction and materials of Dan's cable is not hidden.

Xi-Trum · « **Reply #68 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 07:28 pm »

Quote from: Psychicanimal

I'd make sure my own homebrew is cryo treated and properly burned in before the match.

Not a problem. I actually still have a bunch of 6-ga wires lying around. I'll cryo-treat them. I'm curious about all this cryo thing as well. Might as well find out what all the rave is about.

Ok, how does one go about getting things cryo-ed? Thanks.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #69 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 07:33 pm »

Quote from: JohnR

Nathan's "question" is not a question, it's a dig. The construction and materials of Dan's cable is not hidden.

I'm referring to Audioengineer judging Dan's cable by its cover and price...

JohnR · « **Reply #70 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 08:12 pm »

Right, so am I... like I said, construction and materials are not hidden.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #71 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 08:14 pm »

O.K. guys; I need to ask a question here. I keep hearing all this stuff about cable burn in. If a cable burns in, does it also burn out? How long does it take to burn out? are you guys saying cables are like lightbulbs?

JohnR · « **Reply #72 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 08:20 pm »

That's correct, Dan. They burn out, but not as quickly as we burn out from reading the same tired old sneering from the anti-cable camp.

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #73 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 08:23 pm »

John: That was an attempt at humor, no more, no less.

JohnR · « **Reply #74 on:** 13 Mar 2003, 08:26 pm »

I will have to try adding more gain to my joke detector circuit.

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #75 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 02:34 am »

Seems the wire I use is tin plated, not silver plated, and available through BELDEN!!!

I've been told it's a 12 ga fire alarm signal transmission wire BELDEN 83803:

http://bwcecom.belden.com/college/techpprs/NEC760tp.htm

Buy a roll of this, solder terminals and send it to cryo treatment

AudioCircle >>>>> the official non-Voodoo site!

Yours truly--with psychic power and primal intensity,

P/A

Dan Banquer · « **Reply #76 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 04:07 pm »

I had some time this morning to get more information on heavier gauge wire for loudspeakers. At www.partsexpress.com I found the following:
1. 10 AWG zip cord, 50 ft for 35.90, part number 100-156
2. 4 Awg Red, multistanded and claimed to be very flexible, part number 100-194, 1.25 per foot. The same in black, part number 100-196.
There is a 5 foot minimum order on the 4 AWG.
How do the prices compare with the 6 AWG at Loewes Hardware vs. the 4 AWG at Parts Express?

Audio Al · « **Reply #77 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 04:44 pm »

Will someone please kill this thread?

This whole tired affair started out with a ridiculous post about a DIY speaker cable "design" which was nothing more than a step by step instruction about how to purchase a spool of zip wire and strip the ends. Whether this was intended as a joke or for 8 year old newbies, I really don't care anymore. I'm beggin' ya....please stop.
Where's the administrator when you need him? Send this to the Intergalactic Wastebin!

I can't take it anymore!

nathanm · « **Reply #78 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 04:47 pm »

Then don't read it.

tkp · « **Reply #79 on:** 14 Mar 2003, 05:12 pm »

Quote from: Dan Banquer

I had some time this morning to get more information on heavier gauge wire for loudspeakers. At www.partsexpress.com I found the following:
1. 10 AWG zip cord, 50 ft for 35.90, part number 100-156
2. 4 Awg Red, multistanded and claimed to be very flexible, part number 100-194, 1.25 per foot. The same in black, part number 100-196.
There is a 5 foot minimum order on the 4 AWG.
How do the prices compare with the 6 AWG at Loewes Hardware vs. the 4 AWG at Parts Express?

Lowe 6 gauge 19 strands THHN wire cost is 25 cents per foot and roughly $ 80.00 for 500 ft spool (comes out to be about 16 cents per foot). For the record, I have switched all my speaker cable to the Lowe 6 guage. The brands I used before the Lowes 6 gauge are: Wire World Atlantis II, Kimber 8TC, Purist Audio Design Aquous/Elementa, Audio Quest Midnight 3+, and home made pure silver wires in braided configuration (similar to homegrownaudio speaker cable).