Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design

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JonnyFive

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Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« on: 29 Sep 2017, 03:05 pm »
Jim and I are brainstorming a fully active 3-way design using the bass section of the Soundscape 8s, Eton Arcosia 4" midrange, and Transducer Labs Be tweeter.

I loved the bass section of the Soundscape 8s, and I'm sure that TL Be tweeter is a great performer based on everything I've heard.

My question is the midrange driver.  Those who have heard both the Accuton and Eton midrange, can you chime in on your thoughts between the two?  Are they similar in sound or do they have distinctly different characters?  Are there any other midrange drivers worth considering?

Thanks for the input!

Carl V

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #1 on: 29 Sep 2017, 03:36 pm »
You might want to Ping this question in the SELAH Circle.
I believe Rick has used these Midwoofers.

Jim & his Team can work wonders for you.

an Acquaintance has Eggelstons Works he started With ANDRAs
and now has VIGNINTIs.  They sound great.  The SAVOYs are
amazing, amazingly expensive, large & Heavy.

DEP14

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #2 on: 2 Oct 2017, 02:18 am »
I would love to see that built and have a chance to demo it.  I bounced around something like that with Jim a bit, but then I know he was working on the Song 3's... haven't heard those yet.

But, if you do that I'd love to drive over to Pontiac and hear them before they ship to you!

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #3 on: 2 Oct 2017, 02:14 pm »
Carl V - thanks for the input!

Dep - of course you can head over and take a listen if we go ahead with the design!  What idea were you bouncing around with Jim?

will mac

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #4 on: 3 Oct 2017, 12:19 pm »
 debating buying Eton's and accutons for a while.  Then noticed a new 3" Eton symphony 2 hex with phase plug and nice compact neo magnet.  No download from eton as of yet

DEP14

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #5 on: 4 Oct 2017, 10:33 pm »

Dep - of course you can head over and take a listen if we go ahead with the design!  What idea were you bouncing around with Jim?

Well, I know Jim for a while was kicking around a 3 way active speaker and that was of interest.  I like a little extra thump in the low end, I also tend to listen loud.  I like some extra snap in the midrange, but don't want things to get bright either, and I'm a bit weird about cymbals in a mix (I don't want to hear cymbals come too far forward).

There are a lot of things I loved about the SS8's, but wanted a shade more low end thump, and a little different character up high.  I like a bigger sound.  So we talked a bit about an active 3 way using a Seas Midrange, I think it was a higher end, but paper one, and possibly that Be tweeter he uses.

I won't deny though that I do really like the Esotar2 tweeter from Dyn, I wish they sold them separately still.  Would love to cook up something with Jim and Dennis.

Jim was working on the Song 3's, and I've yet to hear those. 

I ended up after a demo really liking the new DynAudio Contour 60's, so ended up with a pair.  They are not perfect, but I do really like a lot about them (if I could only cross them with a SS8...) and I'm running a pass labs 250.8 and XP12 for music now.  It's pretty great as a combo.

But, I'll end up with something from Jim again I'm sure.  Probably not a matter of if as much as when... so if you build those, I have to give them a listen.

Tomy2Tone

Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #6 on: 4 Oct 2017, 11:36 pm »
I'll throw in the Audio Tech mid driver as another option to consider. I've heard both the Accuton and Audio Tech and feel the Audio Tech can be just as detailed but offers a bit more warmth and natural sound. Johzel had Jim brew up a pair of Song 3's with the BE tweeter and Audio Tech mid pictured here in this thread.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=147571.msg1578596#msg1578596

The top section of that Song 3 with a bottom end of a SS8 would be sweet but I'm guessing those Song 3's are pretty damn good in their own right. Would love to hear them someday.

johzel

Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #7 on: 5 Oct 2017, 11:56 am »
I'll throw in the Audio Tech mid driver as another option to consider. I've heard both the Accuton and Audio Tech and feel the Audio Tech can be just as detailed but offers a bit more warmth and natural sound. Johzel had Jim brew up a pair of Song 3's with the BE tweeter and Audio Tech mid pictured here in this thread.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=147571.msg1578596#msg1578596

The top section of that Song 3 with a bottom end of a SS8 would be sweet but I'm guessing those Song 3's are pretty damn good in their own right. Would love to hear them someday.

These Song 3's are VERY damn good in their own right.  It's my understanding they would be a standard selection but the Audio Tech drivers aren't always readily available.  Price wise, they're positioned between the Song3 A's and the Song3 Encores. If you're ever in my area you'd be more than welcome to give them a listen.  They're spending a bit of time in their boxes currently as we're building a new house.

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #8 on: 5 Oct 2017, 01:06 pm »
Johzel and Tommy-

Based on driver materials alone, and based on my preference towards a warmer sounding speaker, I would probably favor the AT mid over the Eton.

However, the 8" drivers in the bass section of the SS8s are aluminum, the tweeter we're considering is Beryllium, so would it make sense to go metal W - soft M - metal T ?

I don't know if the timbre match would sound right?

 

DMurphy

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #9 on: 5 Oct 2017, 04:16 pm »
I'll throw in the Audio Tech mid driver as another option to consider. I've heard both the Accuton and Audio Tech and feel the Audio Tech can be just as detailed but offers a bit more warmth and natural sound. Johzel had Jim brew up a pair of Song 3's with the BE tweeter and Audio Tech mid pictured here in this thread.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=147571.msg1578596#msg1578596

The top section of that Song 3 with a bottom end of a SS8 would be sweet but I'm guessing those Song 3's are pretty damn good in their own right. Would love to hear them someday.

I would agree that the AT has a warmer sound than the Accuton, but I wouldn't agree that it's as detailed.  We did an instant A-B test with two speakers with identical woofers and tweeters, and that measured the same in terms of frequency response, and the difference in midrange detail was quite evident.  We sprang for the Accuton for that speaker, but I can see where some would prefer the AT.  It's just another of the many audio trade-offs. 

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #10 on: 5 Oct 2017, 04:36 pm »
I would agree that the AT has a warmer sound than the Accuton, but I wouldn't agree that it's as detailed.  We did an instant A-B test with two speakers with identical woofers and tweeters, and that measured the same in terms of frequency response, and the difference in midrange detail was quite evident.  We sprang for the Accuton for that speaker, but I can see where some would prefer the AT.  It's just another of the many audio trade-offs.

Thanks Dennis!!

What about the magnesium Eton versus the AT?

And is there a hard and fast rule for mixing hard versus soft drivers?  Do you get a timbre mismatch in the crossover region?

DMurphy

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #11 on: 6 Oct 2017, 12:59 am »
I've never compared the Eton with the Accuton in a controlled fashion.  I can't say that I've had to take driver material into account when designing crossovers, other than to deal with breakup modes.  For example, I wouldn't boost the output of the AT or tilt it up in order to get more detail.   That's just asking for problems in the frequency domain. 

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #12 on: 6 Oct 2017, 02:10 pm »
I've never compared the Eton with the Accuton in a controlled fashion.  I can't say that I've had to take driver material into account when designing crossovers, other than to deal with breakup modes.  For example, I wouldn't boost the output of the AT or tilt it up in order to get more detail.   That's just asking for problems in the frequency domain.

Thanks Dennis.  I wasn't suggesting to alter the FR of the soft AT mid driver to match.  I was just wondering if the dual aluminum 8" Wavecors at the top of their range sound so different than the 4" AT at the bottom of its operating range, that the summed waveform wouldn't sound right due to different driver materials. 

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #13 on: 18 Apr 2018, 02:51 pm »
Hey all, reviving this with one more question.  We've honed in on a BeATs version of the SS8s.  SS8 bass section with AT midrange and the Satori Be tweeter.  The only question now is active vs passive.  The Hypex NCore FA503 offers plenty of power 500/500/100w, but it has an active cooling fan which runs in proportional mode.  I'm waiting on Hypex to take some noise measurements, but I do know at max speed of 2800 RPM the manual for the fan states 35.1 db A-weighted.  I highly doubt I would ever get anywhere near max speed.

I was curious if anyone had any thoughts about the active fan.  It's possible it would never kick on, or that it would kick on and only ever run slowly, but I don't know.  I really don't want to be able to hear it at the MLP.



jsalk

Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #14 on: 18 Apr 2018, 06:58 pm »
Jon -

While I have yet to get my hands on a pair of these units, here is what I think one would find:

At moderate volumes, 80 - 85db, I would guess the fans would either not run or would run very slow since the nCore modules don't produce all that much heat.  But let's say you play at 90 - 100 db.  At 90db, if the fan ran at maximum, the sound it produced would still be 55db below the output of the speakers.  While I certainly could be wrong, I doubt seriously you could hear anything that far below those volume levels.

Hopefully it won't be all that long before I can test them and see if I'm right about this.

- Jim

JonnyFive

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #15 on: 18 Apr 2018, 08:02 pm »
Thanks for the input Jim!  Hopefully they'll be released soon and you can give them a try!

Saturn94

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #16 on: 20 Apr 2018, 11:29 pm »
I’m looking forward to hearing these! :D

JLM

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Re: Midrange Drivers in a 3 Way Active Design
« Reply #17 on: 21 Apr 2018, 10:15 am »
Q1:  Who will be designing the crossovers?  (Hopefully they have experience with actives and can add in some controlled directivity DSP magic.)

Q2:  Why pick an amp that has a fan?  (BTW I've never been able to hear the fan in the Crown amps.)

Q3:  Will this be a designed as a large room filling floor-stander or a mid-field stand-mount?  (Have owned large floor-standers that overload any room I could afford to put them in, so I'm leery of the practicality of this concept.) 

Typical active 2-way active stand-mounts with 5-7 inch woofers can quite nicely fill a 'normal' 2,000 cubic foot room.  Adding a sub or two to a pair of those should be ideal for nearly any residential application.  The only purpose for a 3-way active IMO is to improve performance of that chosen midrange, which is where the design should have started.