[Hantra]

All:

I had an experience last night which I must share with the group.  I think it's important that everyone takes note of this when shopping, or even when not shopping, but just playing around and trying out gear.  

My dealer just got this Nagra PL-P preamp in, and he told me I needed to come hear it before it got sold.  Well I put it off b/c I ain't looking for a preamp, and in fact if I was, I could not afford the Nagra unless I made my wife WALK to work.  

So last night I was sitting around, and I called.  He says "come on over man".  So I rolled over there.  When I got there, he was showing me some Quad 63's that he had taken in on trade that were immaculate!  So he asked if I wanted to hear them, and I said yes.  You see, he knows I'll listen to ANYTHING.  

So we moved them up to the two channel room.  I had never heard 63's, but I spent a little time listening to the 989's.  When I got back from my 989 experience a couple of years ago, I told him right off the bat that I was going to buy some Quads.  He looked a bit confused.  He was asking me about the setup, and I told him that they were using Halcros for amplification, and the TAG preamp that I was talking about earlier.  

He says "Man you were hearing those Halcros.  You weren't hearing the Quads.  That was the amps for sure.". . .    

I trust the guy, and although it was hard to believe, I read other things about Quads, and was a bit less excited about them.

2 years later, it's payback time.  I get to hear some Quads again.  And since a lot of Quadphiles like the 63 better than the 988/989, I was ready for it.

We plopped them down where the Piegas had been, and sort of eyed them to get them in place.  Plugged everything in, and took off listening.  As soon as I heard the first track on the Quads, which was the first off Brian Wilson's Smile disc, I was pretty excited.  I mean these things are a lot like I remembered the 989's sounding.  

We switched to some other stuff, and listened some more.  As the Quads charged up, they kept getting better until I was convinced that I was taking those home with me.  I mean the midrange is glorious!  Vocals are eerie!  The soundstage is immersive, and the timbre on every instrument is so nice, and correct.  

He puts on this duet track with Ray Charles and Willie Nelson, and as soon as I heard it, I though it was Willie Nelson.  And then. . It was like. . Well. . It might not be. . His voice was. . Maybe he has a cold or something, but it's so close.  And then he starts playing the guitar, and it's confirmed.  It's definately Willie Nelson.  No doubt.

I was so pumped man, and I seriously was thinking hard about buying these and replacing my current speakers.  

Then my dealer says "Well. . . let me swap preamps. . . ". .  

I then remembered about the Halcros, and I thought. . Well OK then. . I'll just see if he was right, or if the Quads really are the bomb.

We swapped for the Perreaux top of the line Pre.  It was the SM6 from the Reference series.  Having had the base, cheap Perreaux preamp in my system which I thought was very transparent, the SM6 is 1.5x as good.  

The second I played the first track, it was evident that we took a huge leap backwards.  Nothing else changed except the preamp.  The voice was now unmistakably Willie Nelson's voice.  It was, without a doubt, Willie Nelson.  There was not enough transparency there to make me doubt that it was.  Much of the timbre of the guitar was gone, and the soundstage was now not even nearly as good as with the Nagra.

Don't get me wrong.  The sound was similar to what I get at home.  My system is setup better, and the Piegas just kill the Quads, which I found out last night.  But when we threw that Nagra back in, it was like magic.  I was ready to just sell all my gear, buy the Nagra, and use it with headphones.  Seriously. . .

But my dealer says that having ONLY headphones would drive me crazy, and he's right.  

If I walked in and heard the Perreaux setup, I would have been completely satisfied, and said "man those Quads aren't bad little speakers!".  

Instead I walked in, and could have easily walked out with those Quads and made a HUGE mistake.  

So be careful when you're out there.  Some dealers aren't so scrupulous, and would let a guy make that mistake to sell him more gear.  

Ohh, and if anyone wants to donate a Nagra preamp to the needy, you can contact me at this address, and I will take care of the details for you.  

[WerTicus]

umm does it not mean that the quads are just soooo good that they show up bad gear elsewhere in the chain?  ie ... they are transparent and .. well isnt that what we want?!

[woodsyi]

Amazing that a "mere" preamp can make that much of a difference.  I would think it would be the amp that would make or break ESL's.  Before I tell my wife to walk to work, I would check out the Nagra with other more conventional speakers to see if the improvement is worth the life sentence in her dog house!  

[Hantra]

umm does it not mean that the quads are just soooo good that they show up bad gear elsewhere in the chain?  ie ... they are transparent and .. well isnt that what we want?!

Well they are pretty transparent.  After listening to my system last night, which is almost the same as the non-Nagra'd system at his place, I found the Piegas to be more satisfying than the Quads.  They even seemed to be more detailed in pretty much every area.  But they are like $10K more than these 63's.  The Quads are unreal on vocals though, and might edge out the Piega by a slim margin.  

I would be happy with the Quads, but I would miss the dynamics and deep bass on the Piega.  

BTW woods, the amps are about the same between his system and mine.  both Perreaux, and both sound remarkably similar.

[doug s.]

Well they are pretty transparent.  After listening to my system last night, which is almost the same as the non-Nagra'd system at his place, I found the Piegas to be more satisfying than the Quads.  They even seemed to be more detailed in pretty much every area.  But they are like $10K more than these 63's.  The Quads are unreal on vocals though, and might edge out the Piega by a slim margin.  

I would be happy with the Quads, but I would miss the dynamics and deep bass on the Piega.  

BTW woods, the  ...

so, tell us how the system in the store sounded - nagra pre & the piegas, vs perraux pre & the piegas....

doug s.

[Hantra]

so, tell us how the system in the store sounded - nagra pre & the piegas, vs perraux pre & the piegas....

doug s.

Well unfortunately Doug I didn't get to listen to the Piegas at his place last night, but the ones he had setup are the same ones I have.  So it's not a truly fair comparison, which is why I didn't want to review it or anything.  It just blew me away.  

So the systems I compared were:

The dealer's system configuration A:

Nagra PL-P preamp
Perreaux Reference 350 amp
North Star 24/192 combo for digital
Quad 63's
Electaglide, TG Audio, Fisch power cords w/ Bybee conditioner
Au24 interconnects
PSC speaker cables

The dealer's system configuration B:

Same except for Perreaux Reference SM6 preamp replaced the Nagra.

My system:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=39

I'd say I enjoyed my system better than the Perreaux pre'd system at his place, but I enjoyed the Nagra'd system more than all three.  Amazing if you ask me.  

The difference between mine and the Nagra'd system with the Quads?  Midrange clarity and dimensionality was second to none.  Transparency was so phenomenal, with no hint of harshness.  3d soundstaging with the Nagra that made my jaw drop!  The Quads had so much more bass than I expected.  In fact, I would be satisfied with that amount of bass.  

Anyhow, it's strange, I know.  But that's why I shared. . .  It could happen to you. . .  

[doug s.]

Well unfortunately Doug I didn't get to listen to the Piegas at his place last night, but the ones he had setup are the same ones I have.  So it's not a truly fair comparison, which is why I didn't want to review it or anything.  It just blew me away.  

So the systems I compared were:

The dealer's system configuration A:

Nagra PL-P preamp
Perreaux Reference 350 amp
North Star 24/192 combo for digital
Quad 63's
Electaglide, TG Audio, Fisch power cords w/ Bybee conditioner
Au24 interconnects
PS ...

i dint think ya had listened to the piegas at the store, which is why i asked...    it would be enlightening to see how much difference the two pre's under discussion made w/the speakers ya know, as well as the quads.  this would give yer rave about the nagra preamp more weight, if a similar improvement were noted.    

regards,

doug s.

[Music Maven]

I guess this isn't exactly related, but since you guys are bringing up the Piegas, I just wonder if you've ever seen any demo models of floorstanding Piega near $2000? I'm sure they're pretty nice speakers and I am keeping various options open but $2000 is pretty much going to be my price limit for a conventional floor tower, give or take a couple of hundred. It's not like there are many Piega dealers to begin with, so finding a deal will be hard.

Jerry

[StevenACNJ]

There is a nice Nagra PL-P preamp currently on AudioGon for $6K

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1107306879

[DVV]

All:

I had an experience last night which I must share with the group.  I think it's important that everyone takes note of this when shopping, or even when not shopping, but just playing around and trying out gear.  

My dealer just got this Nagra PL-P preamp in, and he told me I needed to come hear it before it got sold.  Well I put it off b/c I ain't looking for a preamp, and in fact if I was, I could not afford the Nagra unless I made my wife WALK to work.  

So last night I was sitting aro ...

A friend who owns Quad 63s uses two JBL subs alongside. Now, THAT is awesome combination, because the Quads are very deficient bass-wise, what does come out of them doesn't sound convincing at all. Quite the opposite of their midrange, which is hauntingly convincing.

My experience with Quad and electrostatics in general is that they demand really fast electronics; once charged up, electrostatics are almost lightning fast, so if the sound is veiled and muddy, chances are the electronics are not fast enough.

Just a pointer here - by "fast", I don't refer only to actual rise times and slew rates, but also to their power supplies and general execution.

Cheers,
DVV

[lonewolfny42]

There is a nice Nagra PL-P preamp currently on AudioGon for $6K

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1107306879

It doesn't ...look... like a $6,000.00 piece...

[Hantra]

There is a nice Nagra PL-P preamp currently on AudioGon for $6K

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1107306879

It doesn't ...look... like a $6,000.00 piece...

I get your point.  But let me stress that this is one of the nicest pieces I have ever seen.  In fact, if you ever look real hard at a Rolex, and the fit, finish, and machining, it's very similar.  Turning the knobs gives me a woody.  

[lonewolfny42]

Hantra:

Turning the knobs gives me a woody

[/list:u]

You must be "easy"..... [/list:u]

[WerTicus]

My experience with Quad and electrostatics in general is that they demand really fast electronics; once charged up, electrostatics are almost lightning fast, so if the sound is veiled and muddy, chances are the electronics are not fast enoug ...

like ribbons!

[DVV]

My experience with Quad and electrostatics in general is that they demand really fast electronics; once charged up, electrostatics are almost lightning fast, so if the sound is veiled and muddy, chances are the electronics are not fast enoug ...

like ribbons!

Exactly! Their effective moving mass is very low, they are pre-charged and ready to roll, they are planar so phase distortion is mostly on purely academic levels.

No wonder they need fast drive, both electrostatics and ribbons.

Cheers,
DVV

[tonygeno]

Hantra:

Did you ensure that the two pre-amps were level matched when comparing them?

[Hantra]

Hantra:

Did you ensure that the two pre-amps were level matched when comparing them?

By ear.

[tonygeno]

Hantra:

Did you ensure that the two pre-amps were level matched when comparing them?

By ear.

Do you think that level differences between the two setups could have caused some of the huge differences you heard?

[Hantra]

Do you think that level differences between the two setups could have caused some of the huge differences you heard?

It's always possible.  But like I said, if I had $7,000 to spend on my system, I'd have bought it on the spot.  SPL meter be damned. . .

[KeithR]

There is a nice Nagra PL-P preamp currently on AudioGon for $6K

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1107306879

It doesn't ...look... like a $6,000.00 piece...

If you have ever seen one in person, you would think it's worth double.

It's an insanely well built piece.  Pure audio jewelry.

I had one for awhile