swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S

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rklein

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swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« on: 8 May 2017, 03:25 pm »
Can one swap out 12AT7's which are being used in a preamp to 6DJ8/ECC88'S?

I have NORD One-Up monos and while this preamp that I am trying sounds pretty good with the NORD's, I can't move the volume knob past 9 o'clock.  So I was wondering if the ECC88's would provide less gain in the pre than the 12AT7's.

Regards,

Randy

poseidonsvoice

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Re: swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« Reply #1 on: 8 May 2017, 03:41 pm »
Can one swap out 12AT7's which are being used in a preamp to 6DJ8/ECC88'S?

I have NORD One-Up monos and while this preamp that I am trying sounds pretty good with the NORD's, I can't move the volume knob past 9 o'clock.  So I was wondering if the ECC88's would provide less gain in the pre than the 12AT7's.

Regards,

Randy

Randy,

ECC88/6922/6DJ8 do indeed have a lower mu of 33, and hence amplification factor than 12AT7's (mu = 60) and their variants. However, there are other issues such as proper biasing of the tubes since they do operate ideally at different currents and plate voltages, along with different filament voltages and currents as well. At 6.3V filament voltage, the 6922 requires 365mA while the 12AT7 requires 300mA. The 12AT7 can also work with a 12.6V filament source but only requires 150mA.

The simple answer is no. You would have to redesign your tube preamp gain stage.

The Nord's I believe in general have 26dB of overall gain. Depending on the sensitivity of the speakers you have, listening room size/reverberation, listening position and output voltage of your sources, 26dB of overall gain should be enough. My general rule of thumb is for a 90dB efficient speaker, a voltage source of 2V-3V rms requires 26dB of overall gain to get good playback levels. As such a passive preamp or buffer preamp design would be recommended with 0 to 6dB of gain to account for differences in recordings.

Good luck.

Best,
Anand.

randytsuch


rklein

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Re: swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« Reply #3 on: 8 May 2017, 05:23 pm »
Anand:

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  I have been running a Bent TAP pre with the NORD's but the tubed pre (can't say the brand just yet...) had a fuller more satisfying sound.  Just a bummer that I can't get the volume knob past 9 o"clock.

Randy:

Thanks for the link.  Very interesting.  I will say that I have run this pre with Brimar 12AT7's and also Sylvania 12AT7's with the Brimars coming out on top.  In fact, it wasn't even close between these two tubes.

Regards,

Randy

poseidonsvoice

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Re: swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« Reply #4 on: 8 May 2017, 05:26 pm »
Maybe another of the 12AT7 family?

http://www.300guitars.com/articles/preamp-tube-gain-factors-and-substitution-chart/

The 12AX7, 12AT7, and 12AU7 are not interchangeable in my opinion with regards to tube high end design. Yes, the filament supply design is very similar but the bias points are very, very different. Guitar amps are a different ball of wax. Of course one can substitute different brands of 12AT7's but I think Randy has probably already tried that.

Best,
Anand.

avahifi

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Re: swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« Reply #5 on: 8 May 2017, 07:44 pm »
Aside from the fact that tubes starting with 6 indicate a 6V heater supply and tubes starting with 12 indicate a 12V heater supply, and are NOT interchangeable, there are more issues.

In the same family of tubes such as dual triode 12AT7, 12AX7, and 12AU7 there are significant gain differences.

In a given circuit using overall loop feedback, using a tube with less gain that what the circuit was designed for reduces the feedback, increasing harmonic distortion (bad) but decreases any transient distortion (maybe good, depending upon the circuits overload immunity).  Using a tube with more gain than the design goal increases the feedback, reduces harmonic distortion (good) but increases transient distortion potential (bad)

Excess harmonic distortion is perceived as muddy sound with poor attacks, but in minor amounts may be pleasing.  Excess transient distortion is perceived as hard, bright, and edgy sound and that too is unhappy.

Often "tube rolling" is nothing more than finding (by ear)  the tube with  the "just right" gain for your particular circuit.  No magic here, just use a good tube tester to find the tubes with the right gain for your circuit, keeping in mind that there is a lot of sample to sample variation in any batch of tubes.

Frank Van Alstine

rklein

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Re: swapping 6DJ8/ECC88 FOR 12AT7'S
« Reply #6 on: 9 May 2017, 01:05 pm »
Thanks for all the detailed responses. :thumb:

Regards

Randy