[goskers]

Measurements smeasurements.

If a graph tells me a speaker sucks but my ears tell me it's wonderful, I'm going with my ears.

Some great sounding gear measures poorly.  Example:  SET amps.

It's all about what one may want.  If someone wants a certain characteristic to flavor all of their music then that is certainly their choice.  I just don't want to be putting the same seasoning on everything whether it needs it or not.  I'm not here to tell anyone that what sounds good to them is not good because that is all subjective perspective.  What I do want is for people to be aware of some of the science and measurements which may help one in determining a neutral loudspeaker and thus give one a better chance at long term happiness.

[dburna]

Hey folks, I have been more than happy with the help and resourcefulness of ALL the AC posters to this thread.  I don't want to see my post hijacked.  I value (and trust) both measurements and my ear, and I am grateful to knowledgeable enthusiasts who provide me with a good starting point -- and valuable technical/anecdotal insights -- into my investigations.  There is room for ALL under the tent.

I can't ignore measurements, yet some great measuring speakers leave me somewhat cold.  There is a balance to be struck here, and I think we all struggle to find it.  Thank you to all who have given me some very critical leads as I begin my investigation.  I think I will go into next year's AXPONA with a clear focus on looking solely at speakers that are designed/intended for a smaller living space.  Will also try to find a pro dealer in the Chicago area who can provide demos of some of the leading active/studio monitors.  I already have a leg up on this because of familiarity with my own KH120s.

I remain gratefully yours,  -dB

[sunnydaze]

I can't ignore measurements, yet some great measuring speakers leave me somewhat cold.  There is a balance to be struck here, and I think we all struggle to find it. 

EXACTLY!

This is the point I've been struggling to make.  You are much more articulate!   

[jtwrace]

I've yet to hear a properly measured loudspeaker not be delightful subjectively.  Why?  That's mainly due to the fact that probably only 4 or so actually do proper measurements.  "Goskers" certainly isn't saying to buy solely based on measurements.  We did fly to CA to confirm that subjectively we liked what we saw objectively....once again proven right that there is definitely a very strong correlation.  Dr. Geddes and Dr. Toole know something that nearly all neglect but yet think they know more.   

[dburna]

It's all about what one may want.  If someone wants a certain characteristic to flavor all of their music then that is certainly their choice.  I just don't want to be putting the same seasoning on everything whether it needs it or not.  I'm not here to tell anyone that what sounds good to them is not good because that is all subjective perspective.  What I do want is for people to be aware of some of the science and measurements which may help one in determining a neutral loudspeaker and thus give one a better chance at long term happiness.

Your input is most appreciated, Goskers.  I view all the insights provided merely as a starting point for listening to find what I want.  As a former EE (long, long ago), I value quite highly a scientific approach to engineering design.  Because of the "subjectivity of bliss," as you have noted, I want to find the best marriage of quality engineering and personal musical engagement.  I have left out many of my personal preferences/biases here because I know what I like/dislike, but that doesn't help others if they don't hear things the same way.

Let the recommendations/insights (re-)commence!

-dB

[macrojack]

Your primary fixation in this pursuit is sound quality, it would seem. Your significant other holds a position dominated by concerns about appearance. Is that right so far?
Wouldn't it make sense then, assuming my previous two observations receive an affirmative nod, for you to seek out contenders that meet cosmetic (decorating) muster initially, and then pursue among those which sounds best to you.
My wife's complaints, before she gave up, always mentioned the "wires everywhere" and the sheer number of boxes in view.
Given those two complaints and my presumption that my wife is representative of the genre, I would recommend you investigate something like the KEF LS-50W or the Deviate Phantom. Both are modern, inconspicuous and hi-fi enough to represent a workable compromise. Likewise, both can operate with a very small amount of physical connection. Win/Win?Maybe!
Another technique that may serve you, advises you to have your heart set on something big and ugly that you really really must have. You're not getting any younger and these UGLY MFs MK IV have been on your bucket list since the beginning. Guilt trip her big time on this. Then present the "whatever you really want stand mount" to her as "fall on your sword sacrificial compromise". She will be so relieved not to have to live with the UGLY units that you will emerge as a wonderful man who understands her and cares for her beyond any question. Should help you on your way to those K&H 310 you should be considering.

[Wind Chaser]

Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.

[macrojack]

Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.

It can be difficult to read the calorie count without considering the flavor.

[jtwrace]

Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.

I've never seen two different manufacture loudspeakers measured properly (polar plots) the same.  If you know of any, I'd love to see it.  It's actually the quite the opposite too.  It's the largest part!   

[goskers]

Here's the rub with measurements, two different speakers can measure the same and yet sound very different. One of them will be deemed preferable and the other inferior. Measurements are only a small part of a very big picture.

The question then becomes what are the measurements?

Until there is a standard with which all are needing to provide data for I don't see the merri-go-round stopping.  Does anyone not find it a bit interesting that home audio has virtually no data available from all makers which has any correlation to sound quality?

[dburna]

Another technique that may serve you, advises you to have your heart set on something big and ugly that you really really must have. You're not getting any younger and these UGLY MFs MK IV have been on your bucket list since the beginning. Guilt trip her big time on this. Then present the "whatever you really want stand mount" to her as "fall on your sword sacrificial compromise". She will be so relieved not to have to live with the UGLY units that you will emerge as a wonderful man who understands her and cares for her beyond any question. Should help you on your way to those K&H 310 you should be considering.

I have learned that I rarely win when I try to set up a "manipulation scenario".   My wife is too smart for that.     Besides, she has been indulgent about the huge stereo rack (and large-ish speakers) in our 15'x20' living room for many years now.  If I move to actives, however, I can pretty much reduce to streamer -> DAC/preamp -> active speakers.  No more rack, no more giant speaker cables cluttering things, no more Mac Mini (and drives) in the living room.  With considerably less "clutter," I think the choice of speakers would be an easier sell....with the caveat that there is no going back.     Plus, monitors are more flexible to adjust to room settings/placement, meaning I *could* put these in a corner of the room, instead of out in space where the "big monsters" are.  We could alway put some fabric over the speaker stands and a great deal of the 'mess' would be obscured from her standpoint.  This is an obvious space/complexity win. 

My biggest challenge is how it will sound in the end.  I mentioned previously that I have (smaller) KH120s in our downstairs A/V rig.  Would larger KH/JBL models (for example) work for me in the main rig?  Right now I am spoiled by a pair of "smooth-sounding" 96dB horn speakers.  As always, the challenge with any speakers I audition is the potential for a shrill/uninvolving upper frequency spectrum.  I think, if pressed, that I would admit to liking a neutral system.....with a touch of warmth.  If I get even a tiny bit of harsh/icepick treble, it drives me to distraction in seconds.  A lot of these upper eschelon monitors deliver "the truth".  The question is: can I handle "the truth"??  I admit freely that I struggle with that.  On every other level (except maybe WAF, but I'm sure I can find *something* that will work), an active monitor system is a theoretical win-win-win.

-dB

[dburna]

Semi-related question: does anyone know of an outfit that would have high-end pro monitors in the Chicago area......to which I could actually *LISTEN* before purchasing?

Thanks,  -dB

[sunnydaze]

Given where you are coming from (sweet speakers!) and how you describe your preferences, I'd put very big money on the fact that to be happy you will need to end up with a speaker that is generally described as having some or all of the following adjectives:

smooth
sweet
warm
involving
immersive
forgiving
musical

A speaker described as neutral, linear, accurate will not cut it for you.  They are buzzwords for hi-fi, not emotion and musical involvement.  You seem to be leaning this way for aesthetic reasons, but in the long run I suspect your ears will be unhappy.

Based on your posts and gear, I sense my tastes and preferences align with yours, and the above is what I've learned over the 20+ years I've been at this.  IMHO, of course.

 

[JLM]

Part of the problem with measurements is making sure that what you're measuring correlates with what we hear. 


dburna:

All the Guitar Centers around me only have crap monitors and no good listening facilities.

Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN.  Too far for you?

[dburna]

Given where you are coming from (sweet speakers!) and how you describe your preferences, I'd put very big money on the fact that to be happy you will need to end up with a speaker that in he consensus view has some or all of the following adjectives attached to it:

smooth
sweet
warm
involving
immersive
forgiving
musical

A speaker described as neutral, linear, accurate will not cut it for you.  They are buzzwords for hi-fi, not emotion and musical involvement.  You seem to be leaning this way for aesthetic reasons, but in the long run I suspect your ears will be unhappy.

I sense my tastes and preferences align with yours, and this is what I've learned over the 20+ years I've been at this.
IMHO, of course.

Right on, which is why I try to be open to all options, but I am admittedly leery when I hear the phrases: all-metal domes, ribbons that go up to 50KHz, world-class tweeters, etc.  I bet I covered 90+% of the rooms at AXPONA in a day, mainly because I was in/out of so many in less than a minute.  I've been at this for 20+ years as well, and I can tell in a very short period whether something will work for me or not.  That's a factor of making so many mistakes earlier in my audiophile tenure (Piega, I'm talking to you!).

So relaxed, forgiving, accurate (yet musical), involving.......can I find that in a studio monitor?  Is that a path worth pursuing?  Should I stick with a "Class A + higher-efficiency passive monitor"??  And if I go with a monitor, can I find a good, non-etched DAC (usually means R2R to these ears) with a volume control for less than an astronomical amount of $$$???  These are the questions that keep me up at night.  First World problems.   

-dB

[dburna]

Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN.  Too far for you?

3+ hours one-way to Ft. Wayne.  Not un-possible, but I would need to find a day when my ladies were out of town and I had the car.  I must keep that in mind.

-dB

[sunnydaze]

So relaxed, forgiving, accurate (yet musical), involving.......can I find that in a studio monitor?  Is that a path worth pursuing? 

No idea....I've never dabbled in that world. 

My gut and biases and most of what I've read say it's difficult, so I've had no real desire to do so.

[macrojack]

The KEF LS-50W is an active version of the enormously popular passive monitor. Reviews of the original abound and reviews of the active version indicate that the W presents all of that and more. I thought your wife might find their size and appearance appealing - if she can get past the woofer colors. These speakers have only an AC cord running from each to the wall and an ethernet cable running from the master (right side) to the slave (left speaker). Signal comes from Wi-Fi or bluetooth (wirelessly) or through several digital input options. Nothing else required. Wifey could see this as a very acceptable compromise. $2200/pair. Google them.

[jtwrace]

Part of the problem with measurements is making sure that what you're measuring correlates with what we hear. 


dburna:

All the Guitar Centers around me only have crap monitors and no good listening facilities.

Sweetwater seems to be one of the better ones, but is only in Fort Wayne, IN.  Too far for you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM&feature=youtu.be&t=21m35s

There are also many papers to read too.

[opnly bafld]

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