[witchdoctor]

The future is immersive 3D audio via, Atmos, DTS-X, Auro-3D and now AMBEO from Sennheiser. Any plans for an immersive offering in Bryston's future? Check out what Pink Floyd is doing at Abbey Road:

https://youtu.be/yMlFN8V4qW4

[zoom25]

Maybe for movies at theatres. Doesn't make sense for home. People have short ceilings and less than optimal rooms. I see so many people struggling with setting up placement and getting the best out of their stereo. No way majority of people are going to be able to dial something like that in and get good results.

There are new formats every few years when it comes to surround. I doubt Bryston will touch this. Could be wrong.

[witchdoctor]

Maybe for movies at theatres. Doesn't make sense for home. People have short ceilings and less than optimal rooms. I see so many people struggling with setting up placement and getting the best out of their stereo. No way majority of people are going to be able to dial something like that in and get good results.

There are new formats every few years when it comes to surround. I doubt Bryston will touch this. Could be wrong.

It makes perfect sense for the home. You don't need to cut holes in the ceiling. Your saying Bryston wants to stay stuck in the past? You know why people struggle setting up two channel? The limitations of the sweet spot. With immerive audio you can stand up and walk around, NP.
You sound like you just never experienced it for yourself. Watch the video I linked to, all of those Abbey Road engineers say they could never go back to 2 channel. YMMV but don't judge until you compare for yourself.

[James Tanner]

Maybe for movies at theatres. Doesn't make sense for home. People have short ceilings and less than optimal rooms. I see so many people struggling with setting up placement and getting the best out of their stereo. No way majority of people are going to be able to dial something like that in and get good results.

There are new formats every few years when it comes to surround. I doubt Bryston will touch this. Could be wrong.

Hi

For now we are sticking with the SP3.  We find that most customers do not have the ability to use ceiling speakers unless it's a new construction.

So 7.1 or 5.1 seems to be all they can accommodate.

Our Ace in the hole is the SP3 just sounds incredible and I probably get an email a week from someone who tells me they replaced there current processor with the SP3 and can't believe the difference in performance. 

James

[witchdoctor]

Hi

For now we are sticking with the SP3.  We find that most customers do not have the ability to use ceiling speakers unless it's a new construction.

So 7.1 or 5.1 seems to be all they can accommodate.

Our Ace in the whole is the SP3 just sounds incredible and I probably get an email a week from someone who tells me they replaced there current processor with the SP3 and can't believe the difference in performance. 

James

NP, just add the headphone version

https://www.facebook.com/Auro3D/videos/vb.214596845243373/1230780746958306/?type=2&theater

[zoom25]

It makes perfect sense for the home. You don't need to cut holes in the ceiling. Your saying Bryston wants to stay stuck in the past? You know why people struggle setting up two channel? The limitations of the sweet spot. With immerive audio you can stand up and walk around, NP.
You sound like you just never experienced it for yourself. Watch the video I linked to, all of those Abbey Road engineers say they could never go back to 2 channel. YMMV but don't judge until you compare for yourself.

I watched the video. In full. First off, Abbey Road should never be used as an indicator. Anyone that follows pro world will know what I'm talking about. There's always new products going in and out of that place for promotion.

People struggle with room dimensions, DSP, placement with 2 channels. Adding all these other channels will make it far harder for majority to get anywhere to get something decent. Note, I'm not bashing the technology itself as I haven't heard AMBEO, but just pointing out that it will be a mess for the average consumer in their own home. Typical 5.1 and 7.1 surround is already tough to setup correctly at a high level. Now add stuff to the ceiling as well. LOL I'll believe it when I see it. We've had stereo for decades and yet people still struggle with the basics. Again, not knocking on the technology, but I think it won't stick with the average consumer. You'll need professional installations.

[zoom25]

Hi

For now we are sticking with the SP3.  We find that most customers do not have the ability to use ceiling speakers unless it's a new construction.

So 7.1 or 5.1 seems to be all they can accommodate.

Our Ace in the whole is the SP3 just sounds incredible and I probably get an email a week from someone who tells me they replaced there current processor with the SP3 and can't believe the difference in performance. 

James

There you go. 

[witchdoctor]

I watched the video. In full. First off, Abbey Road should never be used as an indicator. Anyone that follows pro world will know what I'm talking about. There's always new products going in and out of that place for promotion.

People struggle with room dimensions, DSP, placement with 2 channels. Adding all these other channels will make it far harder for majority to get anywhere to get something decent. Note, I'm not bashing the technology itself as I haven't heard AMBEO, but just pointing out that it will be a mess for the average consumer in their own home. Typical 5.1 and 7.1 surround is already tough to setup correctly at a high level. Now add stuff to the ceiling as well. LOL I'll believe it when I see it. We've had stereo for decades and yet people still struggle with the basics. Again, not knocking on the technology, but I think it won't stick with the average consumer. You'll need professional installations.

So Pink Floyd made a mistake in selecting Abbey Road while using AMBEO for mastering and the engineers were paid off to make bogus claims? Ohh brother! As for what is a mess in someones home it is room dependent I agree. I could not fit two towers in my condo. My bed channels are about the size of a Mini T and 6 fit just fine. My height channels about the size of a mini A, again NP.
As for what sticks with the average consumer why bother bringing it up in this thread? The average consumer is not a typical Bryston customer, only an informed consumer with high standards. In other words the same consumer who NEEDS immersive audio (at least NEEDS to try it ) Glad you watched the video and thanks for your post.

[zoom25]

So Pink Floyd made a mistake in selecting Abbey Road while using AMBEO for mastering and the engineers were paid off to make bogus claims? Ohh brother! As for what is a mess in someones home it is room dependent I agree. I could not fit two towers in my condo. My bed channels are about the size of a Mini T and 6 fit just fine. My height channels about the size of a mini A, again NP.
As for what sticks with the average consumer why bother bringing it up in this thread? The average consumer is not a typical Bryston customer, only an informed consumer with high standards. In other words the same consumer who NEEDS immersive audio (at least NEEDS to try it ) Glad you watched the video and thanks for your post.

I didn't say Pink Floyd made a mistake in selecting Abbey Road or AMBEO or that they made bogus claims. Just pointing out that I've seen plenty of marketing and promotion come through or done at Abbey Road. Some products have been less than stellar. If you follow pro magazines or pro forums like Gearslutz...I'll leave it at that.

I think the tech would be amazing. I'd consider something like that if I was building a room from the ground up. However, you previous comment about being more open to travel or limited in listening positioning in comparison to 2 channel seems backward. It works if you have a massive room. Also, you'll need to rework room treatment to make it work at a high level. If somebody has the money, it shouldn't be a problem. However, if you have done treatment for 2 channels it can already be quite the work if one wants it at a high level. I'm sure it will be tougher with immersive if done at a high level.

For movies, this is great. Big film studios could have the budget to do this correctly and implement it in theatres. For music production, I still have my doubts. Again, not knocking on the tech itself and how it could be beneficial to the experience, just that it's going to be tough and expensive to implement it at home if one wants a high level. I'm picky. Peace.

[witchdoctor]

I didn't say Pink Floyd made a mistake in selecting Abbey Road or AMBEO or that they made bogus claims. Just pointing out that I've seen plenty of marketing and promotion come through or done at Abbey Road. Some products have been less than stellar. If you follow pro magazines or pro forums like Gearslutz...I'll leave it at that.

I think the tech would be amazing. I'd consider something like that if I was building a room from the ground up. However, you previous comment about being more open to travel or limited in listening positioning in comparison to 2 channel seems backward. It works if you have a massive room. Also, you'll need to rework room treatment to make it work at a high level. If somebody has the money, it shouldn't be a problem. However, if you have done treatment for 2 channels it can already be quite the work if one wants it at a high level. I'm sure it will be tougher with immersive if done at a high level.

For movies, this is great. Big film studios could have the budget to do this correctly and implement it in theatres. For music production, I still have my doubts. Again, not knocking on the tech itself and how it could be beneficial to the experience, just that it's going to be tough and expensive to implement it at home if one wants a high level. I'm picky. Peace.

Your "experience" is different from mine. Fits fine, works fine and like the guys at Abbey Road I could never go back to just 2 channel

[witchdoctor]

The tall stands are needed because I use heavy speakers that are active. Something like the mini A could be mounted high on the wall discretely. My bed channels are the size of a mini t and 6 fit NP. Those are power cords hanging down, speaker wire would be more discreet as well.

[witchdoctor]

Here is a nice example of a high WAF Auro 3D setup:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1507772645908714&set=p.1507772645908714&type=3&theater

Look how discrete the height channels are in this shot:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1644298042264994&set=p.1644298042264994&type=3&theater

[zoom25]

More channels and zero treatment.

Fun for casual use though. 

[witchdoctor]

More channels and zero treatment.

Fun for casual use though. 

Suggestions? I am saving to have a local acoustician come over, thanks.

[Elizabeth]

The WAF factor is a huge problem for 'immersive'.
IMO immersive is a young mans fantasy. Like multi amping, and all sorts of alternative ways to do things.
I think immersive certainly may be a way for a few folks to get their rocks off. But it will never become mainstream. Ditto two channel 'audiophile'.
Most folks are willing to do the multi channel for the home theater. and a few of those might get into  a multichannel music experience. But not many
No one is going to start out with immersive. It is too expensive, just like starting from scratch to be an 'audiophile' is now just a crazy nonsense idea to most humans.

So for witchdoctor, good luck, and enjoy your stuff. If you work too hard at trying to 'sell' it, you may become bitter. Since I bet you might find a dozen or two like minded folks if you try hard.. and then hit a brick wall.

Bryston is IMO in it to make money and stay afloat. Building tiny niche products will never happen at Bryston. (though if you had fifty thousand folks clamoring for it.. They might think about it for a year or two.. To see if it hangs around.

[witchdoctor]

The WAF factor is a huge problem for 'immersive'.
IMO immersive is a young mans fantasy. Like multi amping, and all sorts of alternative ways to do things.
I think immersive certainly may be a way for a few folks to get their rocks off. But it will never become mainstream. Ditto two channel 'audiophile'.
Most folks are willing to do the multi channel for the home theater. and a few of those might get into  a multichannel music experience. But not many
No one is going to start out with immersive. It is too expensive, just like starting from scratch to be an 'audiophile' is now just a crazy nonsense idea to most humans.

So for witchdoctor, good luck, and enjoy your stuff. If you work too hard at trying to 'sell' it, you may become bitter. Since I bet you might find a dozen or two like minded folks if you try hard.. and then hit a brick wall.

Bryston is IMO in it to make money and stay afloat. Building tiny niche products will never happen at Bryston. (though if you had fifty thousand folks clamoring for it.. They might think about it for a year or two.. To see if it hangs around.

Well thanks, I am not in this business, I will leave any "selling" in this thread to James.
I don't know about you but when I was a yound man I didn't fantsize about audio gear unless it was in a car. I think your projections for the growth of 3D audio are a little on the low side, here is some info you might be interested in. Once you "experience" it for yourself you will understand better. According to this article on the future of audio:

Over the next 20 to 30 years, 3D sound-field production and design will be one of the biggest growth areas in pro audio. Microphone designers, headphone makers, audio software engineers, and specialized post-production engineers will move from today's X-dot-X (5.1, etc.) paradigm to a seamlessly spherical, object-oriented sound field. If we plot a 3D audio growth chart with a two-year doubling projection, today's $1,000 3D audio solution will enjoy commodity pricing after 2025 combined with 100 times improvement in "spatial and timbral resolution experience" over headphones.

Conservatively, by 2030 we should realize highly realistic immersive audio as part of every low-cost portable device, gaming console, and home entertainment system. And by about 2040, on-ear audio should rival, or exceed, the subjective performance of today's best audiophile rooms and room speakers. Moreover, in a very short time (perhaps 2020?) common commercial music will be routinely mixed in full 3D immersion, and delivered in an open-source format (most likely a derivative of Atmos or Neo).


http://tapeop.com/interviews/100/the-future/

[witchdoctor]

I understand I am only a witchdoctor and healthy skepticism is expected. But when Pink Floyd decided to use immersive audio for their upcoming show in London, when Roger Waters mixed his latest movie in immersive audio and the engineers at Abbey Road (BTW, Abbey Road is where Dark Side and Wish You Were Here were recorded) are telling you that they can never go back to two channel after immersive audio you can take their opinion over a witchdoctor, its OK 

I realize Witchdoctor Studios is set up like Abbey Road with active speakers all around in an immersive setup and that isn't possible for everyone I get it. But there are plenty of choices at Bryston. 4 model T's , a center channel and 5 model A's would be killer. 8 model A's and a center channel would be killer. It took me about two years to add those speakers, two at a time but I got there. If you can't do more speakers OK. But when I look at the gallery pages of some members systems I think an immersive system of model t's or model a's would be more discreet than the towers I see in those galleries. I can't even fit tower speakers in my condo.
Ears open and mind open is the magic formula. Close either one and you will not receive the true audio transmission.

[witchdoctor]

I forgot Bryston also makes on walls and in wall speakers 

You could make a killer immersive system that even a picky spouse could love with a set of 10 of these bad boys all around. If you already have a Bryston 5.1 system then you would only need 4.

http://bryston.com/products/speakers/Model_TOW_On-Wall.html

Now you have no excuse as far as form factor goes 

[witchdoctor]

So much for leaving the "selling" to James, my bad 

[zoom25]

Suggestions? I am saving to have a local acoustician come over, thanks.

I could write a blog for 2 channels and that would barely cover it. For immersive, you're going to have to take in not only room into account, but as well as room furniture. The furniture comment also applies to stereo, but even more so with surround. Getting the right balance between absorption and diffusion in combination with all the drivers will be another important thing to consider. Look into solutions for DSP. Are you in a house or apartment? Do you plan to soundproof?

What speakers are you going for? How's the waveguide and how does it relate to your preference? I have gone back and forth few times perfecting toe-in for my various two channels. Where are your speakers converging? What's the spread of the sweet spot?

Aside from room issues and acoustics, which I'm sure incorporates the need of two channels and then some! What's the format going to be? How much content is available?

DSD, Redbook, MQA, etc etc....formats come and go...whether it's for stereo or surround. Another thing to keep in mind. If the format is open market, there will be a higher chance.

I would be keen to hear how immersive content on one system translates onto another, especially at home. I figure the margin would be bigger than for stereo. For films, big studios will get this type of thing right. For music, I don't see it happening throughout the industry when you factor in both the diversity of studios along with what the consumer wants or needs. On average, across the medium, I find the quality of audio much better in movies than music.

I hope I'm wrong and this takes off and that I have crap ton of money lying around to build a dedicated room for this thing. I really do.

I know I kept jumping around from one idea to another, but there are so many things I have in mind to say about this, I don't know where to begin. I will bow out and wish you the best.

If you do get the place done, please post some pictures and your impressions. Along with measurements and any advice your acoustician gave for immersive. Hopefully you can contact one that is well versed with this tech and how it might develop in the future. Good luck!