[mresseguie]

Simple questions:

I lurk and read as folks post about this or that <to me> high-end amplifier. I've actually heard many of the above in dealer showrooms or fellow audiophiles' homes yet I've never been in a position to compare any two of the above nor have I heard them in my system. Folks post or posit about these (or any other similar) amps and express impressions and I find myself wondering if I ought to be thinking about spending big bucks to seriously upgrade my amp.

At this level of power and quality, are we all just splitting hairs when making comparisons; are we reaching for that top 5% improvement in SQ? Do I want to venture into this rabbit hole, too?

Is a PASS amp better than a Modwright is better than a Wells, etc. etc.?

I'm not trying to cast doubt on anyone's opinions. I am trying to generate discussion and, if I'm lucky, learn something as well.

[I deliberately excluded tube amps from this because I want an apples to apples discussion. Tubes will be the target of my next thread.]

Thoughts? Impressions? Authoritative declarations? 

[jarcher]

Yes - they are worth it. No - not splitting hairs : bryston eg doesn't sound anything like a Jeff Rowland.

You need to add Ayre Acoustics and perhaps Chord Electronics to that list.

[Armaegis]

I'm of the mind that if we're here on a forum squabbling over the last few percentiles, then we've already boarded the train to crazy down.

[mresseguie]

Definitely on my way to Crazy Town, but I'm not yet insane.

I got off a couple stops before Crazy Town, I hope...

[steve in jersey]

He,he,he....... There's no reason to drive yourself crazy over "Which Amplifier is Better than that Amplifier" as there probably "isn't" a definitive answer to the question. There are way too many variables at work,with the most important one being,we all have slightly different
likes & dislikes.

I hate to mention this over used term,but,it's all very Subjective to your individual listening needs.

The Better question to ask is "Which Amp is the best "fit" (Unless you're considering changing everything ) for what I'm already using. You might be better off starting a discussion about what it is you like to listen to & what you like or dislike about what you're currently using !

Just remember the old saying "A Bird in hand is worth two in the Bush" which means you'll have to try things for yourself (eventually)

[SoCalWJS]

He,he,he....... There's no reason to drive yourself crazy over "Which Amplifier is Better than that Amplifier" as there probably "isn't" a definitive answer to the question. There are way too many variables at work,with the most important one being,we all have slightly different
likes & dislikes.

I hate to mention this over used term,but,it's all very Subjective to your individual listening needs.

The Better question to ask is "Which Amp is the best "fit" (Unless you're considering changing everything ) for what I'm already using. You might be better off starting a discussion about what it is you like to listen to & what you like or dislike about what you're currently using !

Just remember the old saying "A Bird in hand is worth two in the Bush" which means you'll have to try things for yourself (eventually)

Yup.

At this level, you start getting into figuring out which Amp will work & sound the best with your Speakers and the rest of your gear in your listening environment. I'd ask people who have the same gear (specifically the speakers) that you have, what kind of amp they have and what else they used and go from there. Your preferred music and listening tastes can also factor in your final decision.

[rbbert]

It's worth trying to listen in your own system.  Pass (from Reno HiFi, or a local dealer if you have one) offers a 30 day in home trial.  Another alternative is to buy and resell used, which usually won't cost you too much in the "flipping" for products like these, which are in generally high demand.

[Big Red Machine]

Yes - they are worth it. No - not splitting hairs : bryston eg doesn't sound anything like a Jeff Rowland.

Totally agree. This is not apples to apples. I'll have to find the long list of  amps I once owned, which does not make me an expert, but does point to how much differently they can sound. There are some very high priced amps that get high praise because they cost a lot and then if you read forums you will find out the negatives from owners who have dumped them.

I agree with some of the comments here as well about system synergy. Some amp types are better with stats, some with the high efficiency speakers, and some with "normal" speakers, and then there is compatibility with preamps and cabling. Round and round we go.

[macrojack]

Buy something, plug it in, listen and enjoy. Don't worry about whether there is anything better --- there always is. Avoid audio mags and reviewer thoughts, and you will live happily ever after. If you can keep dissatisfaction out of the mix, you will be the big winner in these sweepstakes.

[toddc2]

I tried a couple of your listed amps in the last two years: Devialet D250 and ModWright KWA150 with a MW LS100 preamp. They both sounded great, but neither had that "magic" or "synergy" with the rest of my system and were sold off fairly quickly. Of the two, I preferred the sound of the KWA150 by a wide margin.

I took a $3000 bath on the ModWright stuff so be careful about what you pay relative to the resale market. The KWA150 was a fantastic deal for a new piece but I wasn't able to get back what I thought it would fetch used. Lesson learned I suppose.

I was happy to have had both of these amps through my system but ultimately I ended up going back to tubes...

[Big Red Machine]

I found the list of amps I have owned, almost all used and some for 2 days! So not years of ownership except for a few. And only a few of these would even be considered high end amps. Most are average at best.

But I can tell you the differences between them, well most of them. Some were class D, some A, most AB.

There were some interesting words on Audiogon I came across that said the top amp designers were losing some ground to the middle companies because of trickle down technology and  copying. So it may get harder to differentiate, but for today there are as many different sounds as brands it seems.

Monarchy SM70 monos
PS Audio GCC500 modified by Underwood
Moscode 401HR
Wyred SX1000 monos
Wyred SX500 monos
Wyred ST250
Dodd 120 monos
BAT VK500
Pass Labs X350.5
Sunfire 600
Rowland 201 monos
Belles 150A Refs as monos
TAD Hibachi monos
Dared VP-20 monos
Cherry 4800A
Cherry Plus
ATI 602
PS Audio Delta 250 monos
Hafler 9130
Hafler SE240
Hafler XL280
Electrocompaniet AW220
Jolida JD202A
AVA something?
Xindak ? 200 wpc
Tube Research Labs Samson monos
AVA Synergy 300
Electrocompaniet AW180 monos
Wells Inamorata
Atmasphere MA-1 Mk II OTL Tube Monoblock Amp Pair with 6C33 Output Tubes

[TomS]

 

[S Clark]

I've benefited from a combination of above advice, reading carefully the post of former owners (not current ones so much) like BRM, and talking to those who had the same speakers as I do.  I narrowed my list to three and began the long search for used models.  It took a while, but I landed the amp I wanted at a price that made me happy. 

[mr_bill]

Buy something, plug it in, listen and enjoy. Don't worry about whether there is anything better --- there always is. Avoid audio mags and reviewer thoughts, and you will live happily ever after. If you can keep dissatisfaction out of the mix, you will be the big winner in these sweepstakes.

Sound advice - a good way to keep yourself from going crazy or churning through the upgrades. 

Regardless of what you get, you will, at some point feel the need to change or upgrade because of whatever reasons.  Listen to Jack,

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Higher end amps are worth it.  I have compared a Mac 452 to an Ayre VX-5 and a Bel Canto (I preferred the 452 ).  I also compared my Pass X250 to an AVA 600R and Parasound A21 (I much preferred the Pass and 600R with an edge to the Pass in my system, although both amps had their strengths and weaknesses).  They all sound remarkably different utilizing the same preamps. I feel that the differences are more apparent the more resolving your other gear is.

[Mike B.]

I agree we have come a long way. There are some true giant killer amps available today. The divide between high end and consumer  electronics has  closed ranks. Most of us would be able to note improvement in definition, etc. by stepping up to the high priced offerings. System matching is critical. The question is how much are you willing to spend for that improvement?

[Freo-1]

I've got to say that while all the high end gear I've owned sounded very good (and better than a midfi AVR receiver), the Devialet gear seems to be a step up sonic wise from the any other SS sets of gear I've owned.  If one looks at the performance specs of the Devialet 400 as an example, it has unparalleled SNR, distortion, and speaker impedance readings.  The fact that it's up-gradable via software, has speaker active matching is just icing on the cake.  No worries about interconnects with Devialet.  In fact, you can feed it via wireless if you wish.  It's one of things where you need to audition it in your environment with your speakers to fully appreciate just how good it is.   






     

[Big Red Machine]

Aren't the NuForce amps also Class A and Class D as well? I wonder how they stack up to the Devialet design?

[mresseguie]

Guys,

Thanks for your input. Recent threads on the PASS amps and the Devialet amps have, in conjunction with my recent audition at the Lawrence Audio showroom, made me wonder if I ought to shoot for higher-end amplification. My new Don Sachs Model 2 preamp has contributed to that thinking as well.

Big Red:

I believe you mean Nuprime amps, yes?  They're Class D/Class A. I have an ST-10 here in Taiwan. I like it a lot. However, if I'm going to keep my Fritz LS/5-R speakers, I still need more power to make them really sing. Jason Lin (CEO of Nuprime) has stated that a new reference 2-channel amp will debut in 2018. My take is that it will be (more or less) a 2-ch implementation of the K38 amp. I don't know if Jason would agree with that assessment, but it works for me. I'd buy that in a heart beat if it's got enough muscle to power low sensitivity speakers.

I.Greyhound Fan,

Way back when I was debating buying my AVA 400R, you had mentioned PASS amps, but I just wasn't ready for that level. However, you planted a seed in my mind.

Freo-1,

Keep posting your impressions of the Devialet amps. They're a little expensive for me, but I may get there someday. I see the future Nuprime amp as being a less expensive alternative...here's hoping....

Macrojack/Bill,

Yeah. I know I should be happy with what I have, but my constantly roving the internet's audiophool forums and attending Taiwan's audio shows keeps exposing me to so many choices that it boggles my mind. I get to see and hear amps that I never see discussed in the States. Some are made in Europe; some made in China; some made in Taiwan. As I meet and rub shoulders with the DIY crowd in Taiwan, I begin to see great potential in very inexpensive, but very high quality amps if only I pursue these contacts and am willing to learn more....perhaps...perhaps..

Toddc2,

I, too, have learned to be careful with purchases. I know you can't alway get that 'fair price' you thought you could get when you bought something new. I often use 'hifishark.com' and a Taiwan-based market place forum looking for, waiting for that killer deal on select items, but I must be patient.

I've heard just a few examples of tube amps to know the sound is captivating. I just don't know if I'm ready to go there yet. Once I figure out what my next pair of speakers is, I'll be able to make a decision on tubes or not tubes.

Thanks, everyone. I like this sort of brainstorming. 

Michael
   

[I.Greyhound Fan]

You can find a used Pass X250.5 on Audiogon for around $4000-$4500.  They sold for over $8000 new. It is the a newer version of my X250 and I plan on upgrading to it as it is supposed to be a nice step up in sound.  The 250.8 is the latest version.  Be aware, they do get hot as they are class A to about 25wpc and they weigh 100 pounds.