I need some reassurance

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 4211 times.

william

  • Guest
I need some reassurance
« on: 30 Nov 2004, 01:09 pm »
I am looking at several possible pre/amp combinations.  I am leaning towards the Stratos Mono Block Extremes but I just want to get other opinions.  

Extremes with an ARC SP16 or other ARC pre-amp
Bryston 4BSST with an ARC SP16 or other ARC pre-amp
McIntosh MA6900 integrated amp

Speakers are Snell C/II    sensitivity = 88.5

Thank you.

F-100

I need some reassurance
« Reply #1 on: 30 Nov 2004, 05:52 pm »
I don't have any experience with the equipments that you had listed above but I can assure you that you will never be disappointed with Odyssey equipments and customer service .

I've been a customer with Odyssey Audio for over 4 years now... started out with Stratos amp + Tempest Pre, upgraded to Dual Mono Stratos a year later, and now to Extreme Mono and Extreme Tempest. I dont' know what else to tell you except that I'm very pleased with the quality of their product and outstanding customer service.
Give Klaus a call and you'll understand what I mean.
Trust me on this one...  Santa Klaus will never let you down :)

Cheers,

AlexG

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 225
I need some reassurance
« Reply #2 on: 30 Nov 2004, 09:36 pm »
William,

I second F-100 comments fully! You will not go wrong with Klaus and Odyssey Audio and its strong customer service (solid proven fact).

My experience goes back to the original Stratos (serial #33)... and a few years later... - at the time it replaced a Belles 150-A. I am familiar with the Bryston's 3B and 4B...they deliver strong (punchy) power and will drive any speaker (so do the Stratos), but I don't think in my opinion they have quite the level of detail, resolution and soundstage in a properly configured system. The Extreme Monos will mate perfectly with the Tempest preamp.

I have gone the Odyssey upgrade path and currently own a pair of Extreme Monos. Count me very happy :P

Alex

william

  • Guest
I need some reassurance
« Reply #3 on: 30 Nov 2004, 11:41 pm »
I have spoken to Klaus, and I was extremely impressed with both his breadth of knowledge and his polite, patient manner.  I am getting antsy because I have this fear that there is always something better for the same money but I also realize that much of this is very subjective.  I am leaning very heavily towards getting the Mono Block Extremes and pairing them with an ARC pre-amp, which Klaus approves.   It's tube based and sounds very nice with other Audio Research amps, which I have demo'ed.  That is part of the problem.  I really liked the ARC amps, too.  Then, there is the Tempest.  How much better can the ARC pre-amp really be?  Oy vey!!!  Thank you for "listening" and giving me your feedback.

denverdoc

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 204
I need some reassurance
« Reply #4 on: 3 Dec 2004, 02:43 am »
Do yourself a huge favor, blindfolded have a friend switch cables of known quality--not too tweaky, just well made cables. between the two amps and speakers after having adjusted levels at a khz to at least .2 dB. Which other amp--damn near any with the same power figures. You'll likely be amazed and chagrined to find no real difference, then buy the cheaper amp. I did this test recently, and while I may be 1/2 deaf was astonished to find NO difference.  Certainly I have heard major differences in say a tube vs ss pre-amp both with similar distortion figures,  but after doing this little test, ythe emperer, if not naked,  is wearing a fig leaf of a few unvalidated reports and a lot of wishful thinking/ so I am going digital with a cheap receiver and saving the money for where it counts. So in the end a cloud with a silver lining. my silver! Forget reliability--for the price of the highly touted buig boys, can buy ten of these.  

TRUST YOUR EARS & NOT YOUR EYES!
Js

Marbles

I need some reassurance
« Reply #5 on: 3 Dec 2004, 03:41 am »
Just curious, What amps did you do this blindfold test with?

Thanks.

amartincool

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 54
.
« Reply #6 on: 3 Dec 2004, 08:50 am »
Last 19/11 we had an audition, a hearing, of 5 persons, tube hovland(9000 euros here in Spain), solid state Trigon (2500 eur), solid state Audio Research (2000usd), and full extreme tempest.
Even  winner was Hovland this cost 9000 euros, although some people thought it was too sweet the sound.
And the second was the Tempest, beating the Expensier Trigon.
A second audition we compared Audio Research Solid State with Tempest, with Dynaudio speakers, the Audio Research was drier.
 You have to know I am the Odyssey Audio representative in Spain, so I can be biased, but the aother 4 people were audiophiles with nothing to be with Odyssey.

Chosing between a  drier sweeter sound depends on what do you prefer, me personally prefers a some sweet sound, it is not too much, just a touch.

denverdoc

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 204
amp test
« Reply #7 on: 3 Dec 2004, 10:09 am »
RE:

Amp test: Two amps in question were a sony digital receiver of 20mething like 130 wpc v. classe monoblocks--an older vintage but stereofool class a rec component list. Speakers varied. But before attacking methodology or partucular components, do it blindfolded with amps of your own choosing with matched levels. You did not mention anything re the particulars of the test, nor whether FRand level was tested prior to the test. Even a small amount of amp/cable output impedance change can interact with some systems to produce changes. Thats why I suggested using nominal cabling and would in fact suggest simple heavy guage wire os at no less than 12awg.

This is in no way intended to be a denigration of Odyssey audio; I had the good fortune to meet Klaus and hear the Odyssey gear at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and found it to be among the most musical at the whole show and a killer value for the small floorstanders--almost bought a pair on the spot, but have decided to go DIY instead.

Theres a very interesting thread on depression and addiction in audio running in another circle--as a psychiatrist who treats both, and who in the past has spent vast amounts of money chasing the audio fix, I am of the opinion that a phenomenon first observed in cocaine addiction may be operative--that is, using positron imaging of the brain, it was clearly shown that certain reward centers of the brain literally light up in anticipation of doing cocaine--almost to the same extent as that seen when actually doing the drug. In other words the expectation of improvement may be a powerful impetus to actually creating a perceived difference. I dont believe placebo effect is the correct term, but has been used in the past in this context.

This may help to explain why individuals are often clearly convinced to hear huge differences in non-blind situations, which have been elusive if not down right impossible to perceive under blind conditions. Searching the net, I could not find any references to any well documented and implemented confirmatory testing between amps--Audio magazine did abx testing for a while, and never reached statictical significance.

To carry the analogy a bit further, the new equipment fix lasts a variable length of time until the familiarization process overrides the perceived step up in sound quality leading to the need for another "fix".

I am certain most will consider me nuts, but as a former research scientist in biophysics, I believe this best accounts for behavior and observations that clearly defy logic--spending vast amounts of money for  what others less emotionally invested in the playback will describe as at most modest. It clearly meets the definition of addiction/abuse in some cases given the preoccupation with obtaining the very best equipment and continued use/upgrading despite the negative consequences experienced by engaging in the activity--what some have labeeled a "process" addiction such as gambling, compulsive shopping, or sex.

denverdoc

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 204
amp test
« Reply #8 on: 3 Dec 2004, 10:10 am »
RE:

Amp test: Two amps in question were a sony digital receiver of 20mething like 130 wpc v. classe monoblocks--an older vintage but stereofool class a rec component list. Speakers varied. But before attacking methodology or partucular components, do it blindfolded with amps of your own choosing with matched levels. You did not mention anything re the particulars of the test, nor whether FRand level was tested prior to the test. Even a small amount of amp/cable output impedance change can interact with some systems to produce changes. Thats why I suggested using nominal cabling and would in fact suggest simple heavy guage wire os at no less than 12awg.

This is in no way intended to be a denigration of Odyssey audio; I had the good fortune to meet Klaus and hear the Odyssey gear at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and found it to be among the most musical at the whole show and a killer value for the small floorstanders--almost bought a pair on the spot, but have decided to go DIY instead.

Theres a very interesting thread on depression and addiction in audio running in another circle--as a psychiatrist who treats both, and who in the past has spent vast amounts of money chasing the audio fix, I am of the opinion that a phenomenon first observed in cocaine addiction may be operative--that is, using positron imaging of the brain, it was clearly shown that certain reward centers of the brain literally light up in anticipation of doing cocaine--almost to the same extent as that seen when actually doing the drug. In other words the expectation of improvement may be a powerful impetus to actually creating a perceived difference. I dont believe placebo effect is the correct term, but has been used in the past in this context.

This may help to explain why individuals are often clearly convinced to hear huge differences in non-blind situations, which have been elusive if not down right impossible to perceive under blind conditions. Searching the net, I could not find any references to any well documented and implemented confirmatory testing between amps--Audio magazine did abx testing for a while, and never reached statictical significance.

To carry the analogy a bit further, the new equipment fix lasts a variable length of time until the familiarization process overrides the perceived step up in sound quality leading to the need for another "fix".

I am certain most will consider me nuts, but as a former research scientist in biophysics, I believe this best accounts for behavior and observations that clearly defy logic--spending vast amounts of money for  what others less emotionally invested in the playback will describe as at most modest. It clearly meets the definition of addiction/abuse in some cases given the preoccupation with obtaining the very best equipment and continued use/upgrading despite the negative consequences experienced by engaging in the activity--what some have labeeled a "process" addiction such as gambling, compulsive shopping, or sex.

warnerwh

I need some reassurance
« Reply #9 on: 3 Dec 2004, 11:25 pm »
Denverdoc: Thank you for a good explanation of why people think they hear these huge differences between cables and amps.  After thirty years in this hobby I've been all the way around the block and I can hear subtle differences quite well.  People need to learn about room acoustics and save the money from way high priced amps and cables to buy better speakers or room treatment.  The cocaine analogy makes good sense. I'm sure others can relate and it certainly makes sense until someone comes up with a better explanation.  An amplifier from this company though is of good quality at a very good price. With a twenty year warranty it's a no brainer, especially considering the customer service is reported to be excellent.

denverdoc

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 204
I need some reassurance
« Reply #10 on: 4 Dec 2004, 01:40 am »
Warnerwh,

Exactamundo!! And my point I think to the original thread starter, was we'd all be well off  to first determine our own various senssitivities to various forms of inaccuracy and compromise, before spending large sums of money that then impose compromise in potentially more important areas. So if one can satisfy himself (thru blind testing, and avoid potential self delusion) that amp A just blows away brand b, then for goodness sakes buy it. But if the difference is marginal or impossible to clearly identify, buy better speakers and treat the friggin room. It is astonishing that people talk about small differences heard between cables and are willing to spend hundreds or even thousands of odollars, when there room which is the ultimate component, untreated is lucky to have +/- 8dB bass response, flutter echo, image detroying unmitigated refections, etc. May make the most sense to spend 2 thousand on room treatment up front, then test your amps! Having saved another 2k, spend it on even more room treatment or buy a TACT/DEQX like unit.
JS

william

  • Guest
I need some reassurance
« Reply #11 on: 4 Dec 2004, 04:53 am »
First of all, I appreciate all of your replies.  Everything that you all have written seems to make sense, but aren't there some issues that are black and white, such as matching pre-amps and amps?  I am feeling pretty good about the Mono Block Extremes but I am concerned about a proper match.  I am considering the Tempest, Audio Research (tube) SP or LS series, or a used Ayre K-3, if I can find one.  
In terms of room acoustics, where do you suggest I start.  I have a slap echo that needs work.  I agree with you that the room needs to be considered as a component.  Thank you, again.

William

denverdoc

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 204
I need some reassurance
« Reply #12 on: 4 Dec 2004, 10:52 am »
Well IMHO nothing is black and white in audio, save perhaps the need to have speakers somewhere in the chain.  :lol:

I think the first step is to gain some understanding of elementary acoustics, I have found the following two to be very good:

Don't know the exact titles as they are on loan to a friend whose building his own home theater, but a search on amazon will likely turn them up at good prices:

one is Building a sound studio on a budget,
and the other is I believe something like Principles of Acoustics, Everest??
If you can't find em, PM me.

Here you can find good info about room dimensions, speaker placement,
and various types of treatment: diffusors, absorbent panels, etc. Also a host of web sites; if you want to go whole hog, there are companies who will take detailed drawings of your room and furnishings and tell you exactly what to put where. For even more money, they'll come to your door and measure everything till they have it right. I had the pleasure of listening to such a room, pretty basic rig with Vandy 3a's I think--astonishing how good it sounded. Personally, I also like a lot of plants in the room.
J

rosconey

I need some reassurance
« Reply #13 on: 4 Dec 2004, 10:57 am »
just buy the dam amp from klaus and get on with your life :mrgreen:
i enjoy his stuff so much :D he is also is a pretty decent guy to deal with

william

  • Guest
I need some reassurance
« Reply #14 on: 9 Dec 2004, 12:37 am »
How about an Erleuchtung pre with the Extremes?  How much should I pay for it used?

earl

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
I need some reassurance
« Reply #15 on: 19 Dec 2004, 04:55 pm »
just buy the dam amp from klaus and get on with your life  
i enjoy his stuff so much  he is also is a pretty decent guy to deal with
_________________
I agree. Klaus and Odyssey audio are a rare combination..